How will you vote in the EU referendum-Leave or Stay?

[BritBrit]

How will you be voting? Can admin add a poll?

No they don't. Winterbiscuit's latest post was 11 words long. Spring never posts less than a page.

Its jingoistic to believe that Britain can actually govern itself and manage outside the EU? Really? Jingoistic to think that we could stand perfectly well on our own two feet - like most other developed nations? Okay, so be it. I'd rather be 'jingoistic' than shackled to the EU.

Not purely about money, the break up of the UK etc, economic issues yes, I think the soveriegnty issue is slightly muddied when you realise that the membership of the WTO that is so prized by the Brexit crowd comes with an agreement that WTO decisions can overide the parliament of a country ( it does with Congress in the UK) etc.

In answer to Winterbiscuit's question, no, it's not all about money. I don't want the UK to break up, and I don't want to lose my free movement rights as an EU citizen. I also think the EU gives us valuable protections in terms of employment rights, consumer rights and environmental standards, among other things. Yes, our own government could choose to match or even better those standards, but I don't believe that this (or any other) Tory government would do so. And if Scotlabd go independent, the Tories are likely to be in power far more often than not.

But even if I didn't care about any of those things, I would still believe the economic benefits of being in the EU more than make up for any loss of democracy. If our electoral system in the UK was a little more fair - if I thought that my vote really counted or that I was genuinely represented in Westminster - then I might care more about it.

Phrasing it in terms of "money" devaluates the question somewhat - if you say "well I'm ok with having a little less money", it makes it sound like you're talking about going without a few luxuries, say go out a bit less or buy fewer clothes. But on the scale of a country, having a bit less money means people losing their jobs, it means vulnerable people being less protected, it means degraded public services. All important stuff.

On the democracy question, I do think it is important. But I am quite pessimistic about the ability and willingness of national politicians to enact meaningful positive change - especially as long as foreign millionaires own a large chunk of the British press. (Remember Murdoch's infamous quote that he was against the EU because they didn't listen to him, while Downing Street did...)

The EU definitely has its democratic limits, although this is in part to protect individual sovereignties. But I am quite encouraged by the recent impact of European-wide petitions and protests. The main problem with the EU is not the institutions themselves, I think, it's the fact that people don't follow EU politics like they do national politics. If the culture can start to gradually change, people vote more and public scrutiny increases, then it will do a world of good to EU democracy. But that's also on us as citizens. Democracy is not just a right, it's also a duty.

FPTP is a big democratic problem. It prevents the diversity of opinion in the country to be fairly represented in parliament.

This is another example of the nebulous oversimplification of Brexit discourse - all this talk of "we" get to decide, "we" take back control... who is "we" exactly? It's not like British opinion is a single entity. If you happen to support a minority party, your chances of seeing your views fairly represented in the UK are slim to none. But at least you have a shot at representation in the EU parliament, through PR. Ironically UKIP do understand this, and have hugely benefited from it.

Leave!

I would still believe the economic benefits of being in the EU more than make up for any loss of democracy.

Missed opportunity then. Somebody should have told Hitler that we would have sold him our democracy for financial gain.

Would have saved all that effort of having to fight World War 2 - Germany could just have bought the Uk people off and gained control......oh wait!

Oh.. Hyperbole and an appeal to emotion and history by Spring, course their valid arguments. Not.

There are economic benefits of being in the EU, you can't really dispute that.

Would have saved all that effort of having to fight World War 2 - Germany could just have bought the Uk people off and gained control......oh wait!

Is this a Germany = Nazis "joke"?

Godwin's law...

The last part of my post was a description of the current arrangements.

Not sure we do benefit from being in the EU at all.

Cost of membership fees - £billions per year plus the occasional £1.6 billion top-up

Costs of each trade transaction

Costs of implementing all their laws, directives, regulations

Costs of the bureaucrats we have to employ in Brussels and Strassbourg

Costs of the MEPs

Costs of the European Elections

Costs of attending all these EU working groups, policy units

Cost of our Commissioner and his outer office

Cost of all those UK EU staff in terms of salaries, subsistence, accommodation in Brussels and Strassbourg, for their partners and children, schools for their children, and health care abroad, pensions.....

Go to do one heck of a lot of trade to pay for all that.

the economic benefits of being in the EU more than make up for any loss of democracy.

No hyperbole, emotional response or invoking of Godwin's law required to that statement.

You are willing to trade democracy & freedom for economical benefit?!

i am also very

To paraphrase Benjamin Franklin

Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary (economic) Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.

Another leave.

You are willing to trade democracy & freedom for economical benefit?!

Your opinion of democracy in this country is clearly higher than mine.

And yes, I would have a well-paid job and financial security, and live in a country where our national sovereignty in a relatively small number of areas has been pooled with 27 other countries, rather than living in an impoverished country which has total sovereignty but little else going for it.

But as has been pointed out numerous times your understanding of the "democracy" is flawed. How do you feel about parliament having to agree to be superceeded by the WTO is that is the route that we take?

All the other "costs" you have listed, will be met or matched by other costs of coming out, for example in order to trade with the EU we will have to regulate and meets regulations in order to be able to do so, but pay for the enforcement of those regulations soley ourselves. We may also face extra costs due to the fact that we are not in the single market anymore.

Some of the "costs" you list actually pay for others you list later:

For example:

Cost of membership fees - £billions per year plus the occasional £1.6 billion top-up pays for:

Costs of the bureaucrats we have to employ in Brussels and Strassbourg

As well as others.

And then the appeal to hsotry and emotion again. :)

Deeply flawed arguments.

Why can you not agree that like the CBI,SSMT and many other industry bodies that there are some economic benefits of being in the EU. Your leaders are really keen to negotiate a deal with the EU should we leave, it can't be that bad.

Anyway, your concept of freedom clearly isn't the same as mine either. Do I feel that being the UK being in the EU restricts my personal freedom in any way? No. Do I feel that the UK leaving the EU would restrict the freedom I enjoy now? Yes, absolutely.

We have not pooled sovereignty within the EU, we have surrendered sovereignty.

rather than living in an impoverished country which has total sovereignty but little else going for it.

The UK is not for you then. Its going to be fully sovereign with a growing economy.

We have pooled sovereignty, Spring. the EU belongs to us as much as it does to France or Poland or any other country. It is what we make it.

Stop overreacting and misrepresenting the facts.