*scratches head* Why is the Remain campaign so rattled?

[TheABC]

I genuinely don't get it. They have already spent £9 million on leaflets, wheeled out everyone from the IMF to the American President and the telephone polls are putting them in the lead. Admittedly, the campaign feels a bit "meh" in that they are talking about potential losses instead of positive future plans, but they still seem to be doing OK.

So why does it feel like they are panicking? Could it just be the way it's reported?

Sigh, why do I even bother?

No idea, why do you? I for one wish you wouldn't bother. You've hijacked every single EU thread on MN over the last few weeks, yes we know you're an economist, I think you mentioned it a few times, yes we know you know people in the city - you've mentioned that a few times also. You seem to think your average voter cares about economics/trade deals etc.. as much as you do but here's the thing, many don't, yes we know they have an effect on our lives and you can throw as many facts and figures at people as you like but ultimately most people will vote according how membership of the EU affects them directly, in their everyday lives, not on what future trade deals may or not be available.

The thing I like most about MN is the ability to get lots of different opinions on topics but every time I open an EU thread, there you are lurked, posting the same thing over and over again. It's so monotonous.

Right so higher inflation and higher unemployment, both of which are going to be outcomes of Brexit and of not having these trade deals are things that effect every day people aren't they? Losing employment rights will effect them again.

Also I note you say sod all about the other culprits of these discussions, Spirng, Dasiy and the exit crowd get no mention, liots of people comment on the EU threads.

But thanks, I guess you'd just like to have the aforementioned posters giving you half truths and wilfully misinterpreted data. Good for you.

You can take an educated guess using the information provided though.
Operative word = 'guess'

The scenario of the Brexiters is one in which we will get a trade deal with the EU, exactly like we do now, but we will have none of the costs of the EU or to abide by its regulations. We will have access to the same trade deals that the EU has done with other countries, but still not have to contribute or bear any of the costs of the EU.

No. We will trade tariff-free with the EU, just like Iceland does, just like Turkey does, just like all the non-EU countries within Europe currently do. Just like the other countries in the world manage to trade with the EU without having to pay the EU a fee to do so. The EU is the only ''trade deal' in the world that actually charges its members to trade - it is therefore not a trade deal but a customs union.

We will negotiate deals that are totally beneficial to the UK and work very much in our interests with all other countries and trading blocs.

Yes. If they are mutually beneficial

We will even negotiate one with the USA, despite the current President and likely future President saying that this is not going to happen any time soon.

Not an urgent need. The EU doesn't have a trade deal with the U.S at present, so neither do we. On BREXIT we would retain the status quo of still having no US trade deal. If the U.S. And the UK can agree a mutually beneficial trade deal we will have one. If not we will continue to trade with the U.S. Via our WTO agreements. America does £58billion of trade with the UK each year. That trade will continue as before.
President Obama leaves office in 33 weeks time. He won't be deciding who America trades with. Clinton says the same as Obama - but Clinton may not be elected. Whoever us in office doesn't really matter - we have no deal now, we just won't have a deal post BREXIT

Everything will remain exactly as it is, apart from the fact that we will now be free of European interference in the UK and we'll be able to stop immigration and have FREEDOM.
No, we are not planning to stop immigration. We will have an Australian - style points-based immigration system that will welcome people FROM THROUGHOUT THE WORLD, who have the skills this country needs instead if permitting all self-selecting EU citizens the right to live permanently in the UK.

I'm sorry but that scenario doesn't work with any of the information available, it sounds perfectly fanciful to be honest and means that although there is data and lots of analysis supporting the fact that brexit would be very damaging, there is sod all supporting the happy clappy dreamworld that you and people like Daisy seem to think will happen.

The post BREXIT scenario np works very well. It works for all the other independent countries in the world who trade freely with the rest of the world and have still retained their sovereignty and freedom.

The EU is a political union masquerading as a trade association. The EU is a big confidence trick and the sooner we reject it the better - before it gets its EU Army and before its expansionist aspirations bring it into direct conflict with other superpowers aspirations.

Lurked - an accusation of a happy-clappy post-Remain dreamworld can also be levelled at your perspective. It's just not as straightforward as you perhaps would like to think:

www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jun/14/bilderberg-2015-a-travesty-of-transparency

...and isn't this a great paragraph? :

Writhing around the issue of TTIP is an unholy knot of politicians and vested interests, their tails knotted together in the pitch black of an Austrian sewer. I’m going to put on some gloves, stick a clothes peg on my nose, and see if I can tease apart one corner of this filthy interconnected mass. Here goes.

And I'm pretty sure most of them are perfectly capable of doing their own research and coming to their own conclusions. You and lurked are the reason many posters are lurking and not posting, you both come across as rather aggressive (I'm trying to be polite).
Until the pair of you bugger off some of us are having our debates elsewhere, in peace.

And if they're not mutually beneficial?

Then it won't be a deal, and we'll find others.

It is a fantastic paragraph!

Sprining Iceland is part of the EEA and pays a contribution to the EU, Turkey's deal is not the same.

The post brexit scenario only works when you take away the things that almost every other country involved has said will happen.

The lives of everyone will be effected by it, inflation up, unemployment up, business confidence dented by the uncertainty.

I really hope if we do exit it turns out as you say, however I'm very doubtful it will.

I know that for me and for a lot of posters, this sort of stuff really is bothersome. Seriously bothersome (from the Bilderberg-related Guardian article above):

In the coach below it must have been like being in a washing machine. No wonder the delegates on board looked grumpy. Sitting up front, Jessica T Mathews had a face like thunder. Although maybe the cause of her headache wasn’t the helicopter, but rather the howling contradiction of being on the steering committee of the world’s most secretive policy summit and also on the advisory council of Transparency International USA. Also on the bus was James Wolfensohn. A fellow member of TI-USA’s advisory council, Wolfensohn was the joint winner of their 2014 “integrity award”, an honour he shared with that other famous transparency campaigner, and the world’s fourth-biggest arms company, Raytheon. Previous winners of the integrity award include (and I kid you not) Coca-Cola, General Electric and the then secretary of state Hillary Rodham Clinton. The great email deleter herself. I think someone should tell TI-USA what “transparency” means. There may have been a mix-up somewhere down the line.

I'm sorry justanotherusername, I don't believe you, the fact that you are coming with the agression point means you are wilfully ignoring things from other posters.

I definately don't think I'm the reason others don't post, in fact have been told the opposite.

Careful now, you're starting to sound a tad narccistic.

- And if they're not mutually beneficial? Well, we won't get what we want, which is what the Brexit campaign seems to continually ignore.

You wouldn't make a deal in your personal life that was not mutually beneficial so why would you force your country to do it?

We will get what we want which is to trade freely with the rest of the world and not just with the EU.

America currently has no deal with the EU.

When we BREXIT they can chose to make a trade deal with us or not. It doesn't matter. We mange at present without a trade deal. We will mange post BREXIT

If we leave Four, we will be more at rosk from exploitation by corporations, not more, TTIP is being negotatied for such a long time because the EU has the market access that the USA wants, the US is having to make concessions.

Your great leader thinks there is nothing wrong with TTIP, I think that if the EU does what it says it will with this it will work very well for the EU.

What, where you all agree nicely with Daisy and Spring? That sounds like a real debate hmm

Umm no

So the other posters can continue to post but hover and myself should bugger off?

Oh and: "We will get what we want which is to trade freely with the rest of the world and not just with the EU".

I think other countries might have something to say about that, those that have already commented say its unlikely.

I don't think anyone should leave )the board, that is!). Lurked is right in that a decent debate is many-sided. I am enjoying reading all posts (and neglecting my children).

*Spring, you don't seem to get that "mutually" means that the other side have to agree.

Obviously, otherwise , it's not mutuality - it's coercion. Nobody willingly enters into a deal that they are coerced into. In fact it wouldn't even be legally binding if we were coerced into deals that are not to our benefit.

You seem determined to ignore the fact that as the 5th largest economy in the world we do have weight.

"We will get what we want" is rather like the poster on one of the other threads stating categorically that we will impose a deal on the other countries of the EU.

Nonsense, don't conflate my posts with another posters on another thread. we have trading get arrangements under which we can trade. Our position as 5th largest economy in the world means we cannot be ignored by every other country in the world. You forget, trade is a 2 way thing. Many countries are just a reliant on selling into our market as we are into theirs.

The 5th biggest economy thing is fine and of course we will get deals, but in terms of trade the EU is the world's biggest single market and therefore will be able to negotiate far bigger and more beneficial trade deals than we will get.

For example the Swiss and Chinese deal limits Swiss access to Chinese markets for years, yet gives the Chinese instant access to the Swiss. The EU agreement proposed gives us direct access immediately, our own deal wouldn't be as beneficial.

Also, Spring would you be happy with an EEA deal?

Also, Spring would you be happy with an EEA deal?

No, not happy. EFTA.