*scratches head* Why is the Remain campaign so rattled?

[TheABC]

I genuinely don't get it. They have already spent £9 million on leaflets, wheeled out everyone from the IMF to the American President and the telephone polls are putting them in the lead. Admittedly, the campaign feels a bit "meh" in that they are talking about potential losses instead of positive future plans, but they still seem to be doing OK.

So why does it feel like they are panicking? Could it just be the way it's reported?

Fear. You can control people through fear ; perceived fear of what "might" happen - people are scared of the unknown.

That's why people say they "can't work outside of London" because it's easier to stay aboard the hamster wheel working 70 hrs/week rather than say "fuck that shit", move to Staffs, work fewer hours, cook a dahl, knit a scarf and just enjoy life.

It's interesting to note that the word "xenopobia" relates to "fear", yet there is no sneering, scathing word to describe the "fear" that ones circumstances might change in terms of material wealth.

Ironically I'm sure the Germans have a word to describe it.

I suspect the Germans have a word for "fear that whatever the outcome we are going to carry on having bloody referendum after bloody referendum".

You misread my intentions and I don't think it is worth us engaging tbh.

I would say normal people use emotion as well as logic to come to decisions. It is not to be vilified and sneered at.

I think that people are searching for that 'Yes!' moment, but given that there's so much discussion suggests that nothing is perhaps as 'clear cut' as you might imagine.

Yes, I agree. It's unlikely that anyone is going to hand people all "the facts" on a plate, with no opinion attached to it at all. I don't think there's a specific, set of indisputable facts to be given as "the EU referendum facts. Like any debate, everyone is looking at it from their own perspective and has different priorities.

The best thing is for people to do their own reading and research from a variety of sources. Talk to others with different views, watch/listen to TV/radio debates and documentaries, read the papers, visit the websites for the stay and leave campaigns etc. See what people on each side are saying on each topic such as democracy, the economy, trade agreements, migration etc. Then make up your own mind.

For every argument, there'a a counter-argument. This is from the 'War on Want' website that I've just been reading waronwant.org/what-ttip:

The Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership (TTIP) is a major new deal being negotiated behind closed doors between the EU and USA. The intention to launch TTIP negotiations was first announced by President Barack Obama in his State of the Union address in February 2013, and the first round of negotiations took place between European Commission and US officials in July of the same year.

It will cost at least 1 million jobs, undermine our most treasured public services, lead to a ‘race to the bottom’ in food, environmental and labour standards and, for the first time, allow US companies to sue the UK government in special courts.

TTIP will change our lives forever.

TTIP is marketed as the answer to recession in Europe and the USA, with bogus promises of growth and jobs.

Yet the official study commissioned at the start of the talks calculated that at least 1 million people will lose their jobs in the EU and USA as a direct result of TTIP. With unemployment already at record levels in much of Europe, these people will find it impossible to get new jobs.

TTIP is not just about the EU and USA. Negotiators say that TTIP will set the standard for all future trade and investment rules across the world. This means that TTIP will enshrine the rights of transnational corporations over and above the needs of people and the planet, forever.

We cannot allow that to happen.

The three pillars of TTIP
DEREGULATION
TTIP is not a traditional trade agreement designed to reduce border tariffs on exports. With tariffs between the EU and US already at minimal levels, the stated aim of TTIP is to remove regulations that act as ‘barriers’ to corporate profits.

Yet these ‘barriers’ are in reality some of our most prized social standards and environmental regulations such as labour rights, food safety rules (including on GMOs), regulations on the use of toxic chemicals, digital privacy laws and even new banking safeguards introduced to prevent a repeat of the 2008 financial crisis.

PRIVATISATION
TTIP will boost corporate profits by opening up public services and government contracts to the private sector and ‘locking in’ privatisations that have already happened.

Companies such as Virgin are already running front line health care services as a result of the Health and Social Care Act 2012. Health services are included in TTIP and NHS privatisation will be irreversible if the deal goes through. The same holds true for education, water and environmental services, as well as for any hope of renationalising the railways. Under TTIP, privatisation is for ever.

CORPORATE COURTS
TTIP will grant US companies a new power to sue any future government in corporate courts for loss of profits. This ‘investor-state dispute settlement’ mechanism (ISDS) threatens to undermine the most basic principles of democracy, as previous cases from other treaties show:

Dutch firm Achmea successfully sued the new government of Slovakia for reversing an unpopular health privatisation.
Canadian company TransCanada is suing the USA for $15 billion for stopping a tar sands pipeline in the name of climate change
Swedish company Vattenfall is suing the German government for €5 billion over its decision to phase out nuclear power by 2022.
Veolia is suing the Egyptian government for loss of profits as a result of the country’s decision to raise the minimum wage.
US company Lone Pine is suing Canada for the ban on fracking in Quebec.

And this is from a Guardian poster, who alerted me to this quote from Woodrow Wilson:

The government, which was designed for the people, has got into the hands of the bosses and their employers, the special interests. An invisible empire has been set up above the forms of democracy

Personally, my greatest objection to Remain is not measured in facts or figures but in the above.

four I interpret that Woodrow Wilson comment as referring to the fact that big business now run the joint. Nothing to do with the EU.

The Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership (TTIP) is a major new deal being negotiated behind closed doors between the EU and USA.

Yes, it's a very worrying development.

But the good news is that we can avoid TTIP .

All we need to do is Leave the EU and we can no longer be party to a US/EU deal - because we won't be within the EU any more.

And Cameron cannot sign up to any UK / US deal as President Obama was quite clear on this when he said that in any future deals Britain would be at the back of the queue.

So there you are. Conformation from Obama that you Leave the EU - avoid TTIP and save the NHS.

That's the safer, stronger, better thing to do.

TTIP is a very scary prospect. It is also why Obama wants us to remain in the EU.

TTIP is about maximising big business profits no matter who or what gets compromised in the process. Legislation protecting worker's rights, our food standards or the environment will be sacrificed if it interferes with profit.

Monsanto is one of the companies lobbying hard for TTIP so that they can sell their GMO crops to us. Genetically modified food is currently largely banned in the EU along with hormone-treated beef and chemically washed chicken. If the TTIP deal is ratified, the legislation protecting our food supply will be removed.

Interestingly, Obama signed the Monsanto Protection Act which prevent any court from banning Monsanto's genetically modified crops even if they are proven to cause us harm. Under the Monsanto Protection Act, health concerns that arise in the future involving the planting of GMO crops won’t be able to be heard by a judge.

Obama works for corporations not for the people.

Obama works for corporations not for the people

I just wish all those campaigning against TTIP would see the light and get out of the EU. Obama has confirmed that there will be no new trade deal with the UK is we leave the EU. The excuse that 'Cameron would only give us worse outside the EU' just doesn't hold water.

Oh god TTIP again :(

You realise the corporate courts thing you keep shouting about it part of the Canadian trade deal you all hold up as an example? You realise its part of trade deals we have already and UK firms have used it? You realise there are clauses being put into TTIP that allow the state provision of services ( and the NHS is already on the route to privatisation following the 2012 Health and Social Care Act)
You don't really understand TTIP but are using it because you think it backs your point when it doesn't, but the stuff you shout about is to scare people.

Just a little point: "If the TTIP deal is ratified, the legislation protecting our food supply will be removed." You might have read this in a TTIP press story but it has little basis in reality. The negotiations regarding food safety are on going, and the EU negotiating position was to build upon WTO saftey points and create a higher level of the two. The EU you remember is in the stronger negotiating positon here, it has the largest market and is what the US companies want to have access to.

All the while going on about project fear.

Sigh, why do I even bother?

Also just another point on TTIP, the EU commision have said that there will be no change to food safety laws repeatedly, both the EU and the US have signed up to the WTO food saftey laws years ago too. There may be some removal of regulation which creates unfair competition but the EU will defend its position.

You lot carry on like TTIP could only ever be detrimental to the EU and that the evil wicked EU will sign away the saftey of its people on a whim.

But Lurked, you 'carry on' as if Remain is the only option. We've been given an unexpected opportunity and people are, quite rightly, discussing this additional option. The discussions show that people are very aware that we are not voting for the status quo, but for change. Just because an organisation says something, doesn't mean it should be taken at face value (VW emissions/clean air lies scandal?).

Which I have never stated, I don't take everything at face value, I have read lots and lots of the available academic studies and literature provided by both sides as well as independent sources and I can't come up with a better solution than to remain

I have agreed in the past that there are some parts of the EU that could do with a some reform, the CAP for example, but I think we are far better off in than out.

The fact that the Brexit side keep clinging to figures that are incorrect or incorrectly applied. The fact that they don't have an economic plan except for free trade deals that we have been told won't happen by both the EU leaders and the current and likely next President of the United states. The fact that they jump up and down about the risks of TTIP and the NHS, ignoring the 2012 health and Social care act, and that they don't really understand how TTIP is being negotiated.

All of that leads me to think that the Brexit campaign isn't based on what will be better for us in the future.

Germans seem to have woken up to the dangers of TTIP

www.nbcnews.com/news/world/obama-germany-25-000-protest-ttip-trade-deal-hannover-n560956

Its interesting that you are repeatedly told that one of the reasons that TTIP is taking so long is that the EU has a very strong negotiating position and doesn't have to sign the terms of trade like other coiuntries have to with the US.

Repeatedly its been said that yes TTIP could be a worry, but that if it is done correctly (as it seems to be according to both sides of negotiation) then the clauses covering ISDS, state provision and government's right to rule will be included in the deal.

If this occurs it could be very, very beneficial to us.

Oh and please don't start with the privatisation of the NHS malarky, its already possible under the terms of the Health and Social care act 2012. Disappointingly we didn't need some act of corporate greed to start to do this, just the Conservative Party and their excuses about austerity.

The paper today said there is 2 million expats living in Europe, who want to come home to be included in the vote, presumably, to vote 'remain', so they can continue to work/live/retire in Europe without requiring visas and paperwork. If Britain leave, a lot of people's lives are going to be affected.

The fact that they don't have an economic plan except for free trade deals that we have been told won't happen by both the EU leaders and the current and likely next President of the United states.

They would say that, because it's in their interests for Britain to stay. But after a Brexit, that will no longer be relevant. It may be that actually, a number of countries would then be as positive as possible in wanting to make a deal with the UK.

The anti-EU campaigners would say that, because they want the UK to resign from the EU.

Here's a tip.

If you want to know what the US thinks, it's not Farage, Putin or Boris you should ask.

I think its been made pretty clear what will happen on exit. It will take two uncertain years to sort out, but the EU will not offer us the deal the Brexiteers thing it will. There will be no freed trade deal with full access to the single market without concessions on contribution and freedoms of movement etc.

It will also take some working out whetheether we still have the same terms with other countries like South Korea etc that were agreed under trade deals throiugh Europe. The likely hood is that as we offer a smaller makjet individual deals would not be as beneficial.

The EU is the biggest single market in the world and as such has massive negotiating power that we would lack in our own trade deals. Also it is likely that if we want to stay with full access to the single market and the EU trade deals that we would have to contribute,have freedom of movement etc with no influence. Any other deal undermines the EU negotiating position whihc is something that every other country still in the EU will wish to preserve.

I'm sorry but your utopian idea of free trade that is spouted will not happen. Everyne keeps telling you exiters this and you stick your fingers in your ears and go "lalala I can't hear you." and hope for the best, its not good enough.

I think its been made pretty clear what will happen on exit.

No, it isn't. You don't have a crystal ball and neither do I

The EU will be damaged by the loss of the UK. It will have lost its 2nd large contributor.

There is no way you claim to know what will happen on exit at all.

You can take an educated guess using the information provided though.

The scenario of the Brexiters is one in which we will get a trade deal with the EU, exactly like we do now, but we will have none of the costs of the EU or to abide by its regulations. We will have access to the same trade deals that the EU has done with other countries, but still not have to contribute or bear any of the costs of the EU.

We will negotiate deals that are totally beneficial to the UK and work very much in our interests with all other countries and trading blocs. We will even negotiate one with the USA, despite the current President and likely future President saying that this is not going to happen any time soon.

Everything will remain exactly as it is, apart from the fact that we will now be free of European interference in the UK and we'll be able to stop immigration and have FREEDOM.

I'm sorry but that scenario doesn't work with any of the information available, it sounds perfectly fanciful to be honest and means that although there is data and lots of analysis supporting the fact that brexit would be very damaging, there is sod all supporting the happy clappy dreamworld that you and people like Daisy seem to think will happen.