*scratches head* Why is the Remain campaign so rattled?

[TheABC]

I genuinely don't get it. They have already spent £9 million on leaflets, wheeled out everyone from the IMF to the American President and the telephone polls are putting them in the lead. Admittedly, the campaign feels a bit "meh" in that they are talking about potential losses instead of positive future plans, but they still seem to be doing OK.

So why does it feel like they are panicking? Could it just be the way it's reported?

FPTP is just the worst. Is there anything more depressing than tactical voting, or being lumped with an MP who represents the opposite of your wishes?

Agreed. And that why I get that "wtf" feeling when leave voters make the argument that if the government does something we don't like, we can vote them out. Really? Very few people actually live in a marginal constituency. I suspect most of the people who think our voting system works well are those who live in a constituency which tends to vote for the party they support, so they feel they are represented.

But we voted against proportional representation, which would have had ukip in a much stronger position at the last election. So, which do you want? Real democracy where every vote counts (my personal choice) or what we have now?

We didn't vote against PR, we voted against AV. The referendum was rushed through in a matter of weeks, with almost no discussion of debate. I guess a lot of people didn't even know it was happening, and even if they did, had no idea what it was they were being asked to vote for. Result: low voter turnout, mostly people who feel the current system works for them (e.g. middle-aged Surrey Tories) voting to maintain the status quo, and electoral reform off the agenda for the foreseeable future.

At least some version of PR would be more democratic. Yes, UKIP would have more representation, but so would the SNP, Lib Dems, Greens and other smaller parties. The push towards Scottish independence would probably tail off a bit because Scottish people would feel more represented in government. And UKIP would probably crash and burn, because the moment they had a substantial number of MPs, people would soon see them for the complete fruit cakes they are.

I think it's decided already like the last election tbh.
people still think they have a choice in the matter.

I'd go for a version of PR any day.

The campaign before the vote wasn't good at explaining why it was important and how it worked, I think partly because the major parties had a vested interest in burying the question.

Yes it would give more representation to some people I entirely disagree with, but isn't that democracy? Like someone quoted above said, worst system of government, apart from all the others.

buttered.....that's what I meant!

PR would help stop protest voting and tactical voting.

At the moment I think a lot of people cast protest votes for UKIP but wouldn't do that in a PR system because they would be an absolute shit show in government. And even people who don't think they would be would soon realise what a bunch of jokers they are, so their electoral success wouldn't last beyond the first term. By contrast, how many people vote Labour to keep the Tories out, or vice versa, when they'd really rather vote Green or Lib Dem but think there's no point because it would be a wasted vote?

The numbers of votes cast for each party would change significantly under a PR system, and that would give a much more accurate indication of the electorate's true political views.

I don't think they are panicking but once you hear more about what is likely to happen to the economy if we exit, then it does make people feel a bit tense and determined to stay in.

You'd hope so, but the "Project Fear" jeering seems to have been remarkably successful at making lots of people think there is nothing to worry about.

I think Cameron and the rest of the remain campaign are panicking, actually. They promised the referendum to appease the troublemakers, thinking there was no way the electorate would be daft enough to actually vote leave. But right now that's far from certain, so it's squeaky bum time for us all.

I found some of the anti-EU campaigners have turned back to Fear of Foreigners for their last shot, now that their economic fantasies have been roundly defeated. I hear they will be trying to create a fear of untold millions of foreigners flooding into UK.

Many would like non-EU migrants to be on an equal footing when applying to live in the UK. That's not "fear of foreigners".

Controlling our own borders certainly doesn't mean sending away genuine refugees or people whose skills the UK needs.

Would you label all non-EU countries around the world as being "afraid of foreigners" just because they don't have "freedom of movement" with other countries?

If you think its about 'fear of foreigners' you are sadly mistaken - but please keep believing. The less you undertstand the real drivers for the LEAVE side the better.

The British public has been watching all the programmes the media have been pumping out about the EU and, like most informed people, the more they know about the EU, the less they like it.

Spring, love, how would you know what "most informed people" think? It's not as if you are one.

I think piglet is right though spring, the fear of foriegners is what the campaign are spouting.

They can't win on economics, they can't really win on "sovreignty" because all of the options they give lead to giving up some sovreign power.

So they go back to immigration.

As I've said many times - keep believing it as the less you understand your opponent the less likely you are to win.

As Cameron found out when he got Obama to rubbish and sneer at the UK - that was definitely a vote winner, as evidenced by the Sky poll that showed people had chosen to LEAVE because of his goading.

So the REMAIN side will now wheel out Brown and Blair thinking they will win over voters to REMAIN - and they will push even more to the LEAVE side.

There are lots of other sources that say that Obama had a positive effect for the remain vote though.

I do find it funny that you constantly attack those politicians on the remain side when your own are Farrage, Boris, IDS and Gove and a smattering Tory MEPs, oh and Marie Le Pen (hope she comes to visit).

Your main concern may not be immigration Springing, but in terms of campaign strategy that's what the Leave campaign will focus on. It's an easy votes winner.

I have to say I am also a bit concerned about Remain wheeling out Blair, I could really see it backfiring. Is there anyone left in the country who trusts him? Doesn't mean he's wrong in his instance though... When you have the last 4 PMs of the country, 2 Labour and 2 Tories, arguing for the same thing, it does suggest they may be on the something.

There are lots of other sources that say that Obama had a positive effect for the remain vote though.

Really? Sky News spent the Saturday afternoon telling us that Obama had destroyed the LEAVE campaign - which was contradicted by its own Sky News poll published a few days later showing Obama had turned many into LEAVE voters. (Just bearing out my own first-hand research that same afternoon).

I do find it funny that you constantly attack those politicians on the remain side

I have to - that's how battle is conducted, as you are displaying in the next part of your sentence below

when your own are Farrage, Boris, IDS and Gove and a smattering Tory MEPs, oh and Marie Le Pen (hope she comes to visit)

Farage - with one 'r'

Boris - goes down very well with the youf

Tory MEPS - you're forgetting the 100+ Tory MPs who have also declared for LEAVE - the alternative Tory Government post 23 June.

Marie Le Pen - yes, I do hope she does visit, as I want to continue to live in a country that permits free speech. Its one of our 'British values'.

Your main concern may not be immigration Springing, but in terms of campaign strategy that's what the Leave campaign will focus on. It's an easy votes winner.

The official Vote Leave campaign has not focused on immigration at all. It has lots of perfectly good arguments without the immigration issue. Farage, who is not part of the official campaign is champing at the bit and will do whatever he does because we live in a country where speech is still free and you are free to disagree with him.

I have to say I am also a bit concerned about Remain wheeling out Blair, I could really see it backfiring.

Surely not I demand more Blair, every day, interspersed with more Obama and some Mandelson, Kinnock and Hessletine.

Is there anyone left in the country who trusts him?

Cherie?

Doesn't mean he's wrong in his instance though...

No, of course not. He's only wrong when he's killing millions of Iraqis in an illegal war, he's right the rest of the time

When you have the last 4 PMs of the country, 2 Labour and 2 Tories, arguing for the same thing, it does suggest they may be on the something.

Lol! Have you considered that 2 of them were voted out of office by the country , one is thought by many to be a war criminal and the current incumbent is Dodgy Dave, i would say their support is a liability. Classic!

They are on to something -the big corpa Brussels Gravy train.

I've seen analysis that its had a positive impact, because you know Obama is quite popular. I think you will probably find that one poll isn't all that accurate.

I have criticised your use of attacking the politicians and then said that it is fairly ironic that you do so when the calibre of the leave side is so low.

I hope Le Pen comes too.

Oh and thanks for the spelling correction, I'd do yours but lets be honest it would take all night.

Several bookies registered their biggest shift in the campaign so far after Obama, and it was for "Remain"

It's Marine, by the way. Talking of politicians whose support is a liability.

I've seen analysis that its had a positive impact,

Really?

because you know Obama is quite popular.

Really? Many think he's the worst Presiident America has had. I tend to agree with them.

I think you will probably find that one poll isn't all that accurate.

Of course it isn't accurate, the only accurate polls are the ones that support your views.

In the absence of evidence for the 'positive Obama effect] have this one on me, showing the epicness of the Obama - for the LEAVE campaign.

news.sky.com/story/1684878/sky-poll-obamas-eu-warning-counterproductive

If you read pst Sky's initial attempts at spin it says:

Almost one in three (29%) now say they are less likely to vote Remain as a result of the US President’s support for Britain’s EU membership, up 12 percentage points since last Thursday – and now a higher proportion than the 22% who say Mr Obama makes them more likely to vote Remain.

And he appears to have both put off sympathetic younger people and incurred the wrath of sceptical older people.

Several bookies registered their biggest shift in the campaign so far after Obama, and it was for "Remain"

Bookies did change their odds, as you said

www.cityam.com/239490/eu-referendum-odds-remain-more-likely-after-president-barack-obamas-eu-intervention-according-to-bookies

Look at the date - Friday 22 April

BEFORE Obama had spoken

Sky News Obama poll
news.sky.com/story/1684878/sky-poll-obamas-eu-warning-counterproductive

Look at the date = Monday 25 April

AFTER Obama had spoken

Many think he's the worst Presiident America has had.

In the US the people who think this are the same people who oppose abortion and gay rights, back gun rights, and believe Obama is a Muslim. (that's a large chunk of the population, sadly)

In Britain the polls say that he is extremely popular.