*scratches head* Why is the Remain campaign so rattled?

[TheABC]

I genuinely don't get it. They have already spent £9 million on leaflets, wheeled out everyone from the IMF to the American President and the telephone polls are putting them in the lead. Admittedly, the campaign feels a bit "meh" in that they are talking about potential losses instead of positive future plans, but they still seem to be doing OK.

So why does it feel like they are panicking? Could it just be the way it's reported?

In any event as soon as Britain & Denmark joined (not to mention Ireland with it’s specific constitutional requirements) the likelihood of EEC/EU ever becoming a unified state diminished

It's a reason why other European countries have historically often been ambivalent towards Britain's membership. De Gaulle initially vetoed Britain's membership request because he knew that once Britain joined, the very nature of the project would change, and that the emphasis would turn to free trade at the expense of European identity. But in the end European countries made a decision that it was a compromise worth making in order to have Britain join.

Funny the White Paper on the formation of the EU army was due to be published in early June but has been postponed now till July. Cant think why.

Yes, I wonder Anna!!

I wonder if Anna would like to bet a fiver on that idea getting the unanimous vote it would need.

One of the many advantages of the UK being a member of the EU is that it can help guide and develop the EU. No chance of that if the Flouncers throw away their votes in the Parliament and their seats in the Council.

One of the many advantages of the UK being a member of the EU is that it can help guide and develop the EU.

One of the many disadvantages of the UK being a member of the EU is that it can "help guide and develop" the UK.

Well it will, part of it or not. Which one do you prefer?

Leave the EU, of course Sovereignty and democracy all the way.

No point giving away the country's money and lawmaking to Brussels, just to have them crunched and partially returned to us with strings attached. Best just to keep them in the first place.

Sovereignty and democracy all the way

Where do you believe sovereignty resides? With the Westminster government? With the devolved assemblies? With the banks and corporations, who control the economy? In our laws, which are pretty much identical to most statute in other Western democracies?

How are we more democratic than the EU? At least my EU Parliament vote counts, due to the proportionality of regional list systems, rather than my pointless first past the post Westminster vote.

I genuinely cannot understand the democracy and sovereignty points in relation to the EU.

The EU is not a democracy and never will be

"In a real democracy the people elect their representatives directly and have the final say on who governs them, but the EU is specifically designed to prevent this. It is run by a Commission which sits above a Parliament and a Council with severely limited powers."

"The Commission"... "has the right of initiative over EU laws; this means that no law (or legislative initiative) can be pursued without the approval and direct participation of the Commission. It cannot be forced to act, and it is accountable to no one if it chooses to refuse action."

"Moreover, it has control over the removal or amendment of existing laws. In order to do either, another law must be proposed – it takes a law to remove or amend an existing law. Armed with its right of initiative, only the Commission can decide whether that happens. No matter how unpopular a law might be; if the Commission is determined, the law stays."

"When voters cause problems that obstruct the goals of the project they are overruled. When Denmark voted against the Maastricht Treaty in 1992 and Ireland against the Nice Treaty in 2001 and the Lisbon Treaty in 2008, they were told to go away and come back with the right answer. When France and the Netherlands voted against the European Constitution in 2005, their decision was disregarded."

That's cunning, Winterbiscuit. You mean, very much like the UK is ruled by the Prime Minister and the Cabinet, none of whom were directly elected by the citizenry?

How long have you been dissatisfied with the way the UK is governed?

At least the EU Commission contains one member from each constituent country, nominated by the government of that country. An improvement on staffing it predominantly with Old Etonian millionaires, I think.

"none of whom were directly elected to that position by the citizenry"

At least the Cabinet consists primarily of elected MPs, and the Prime Minister is also an elected MP.

The Commission doesn't include anyone who's elected by the people.

How long have you been dissatisfied with the way the UK is governed?

Well the Tories aren't my favourite, but I've seen several changes of government in my lifetime and predict there will be another before too long.

I'd also like to see reform to the House of Lords. And I think this is far more likely to happen than any major reform to the EU any time soon.

In a real democracy the people elect their representatives directly and have the final say on who governs them, but the EU is specifically designed to prevent this. It is run by a Commission which sits above a Parliament and a Council with severely limited powers.

EU isn't run by the commission though. The EU Council of Ministers (democratically elected heads of all the EU states) sets the EU agenda & together with the EU Parl (MEPs democratically elected by EU citizens) approves proposals. The commission is the executive body a bit like the UK civil service which isn't elected either. It drafts proposals & has very limited powers to change legislation.

When voters cause problems that obstruct the goals of the project they are overruled. When Denmark voted against the Maastricht Treaty in 1992 and Ireland against the Nice Treaty in 2001 and the Lisbon Treaty in 2008, they were told to go away and come back with the right answer. When France and the Netherlands voted against the European Constitution in 2005, their decision was disregarded.

It was the democratically elected representatives of Denmark & Ireland that decided to hold second referenda, not the EU. In the case of the Maastricht & Nice Treaties compromises were reached in the form of the Edinburgh Agreement & Seville Declaration before the second referenda so the public were voting on something different.

Allowing people more chances to express their views through the ballot box is hardly undemocratic. Many of the people opposing the second referenda have been arguing for years that the EEC 1975 referendum in the UK should be re-run.

Winterbiscuit

"The Civil Service doesn't include anyone who's elected by the people."

Fixed that for you.

No, the Civil Service isn't the same as the Commission. For one thing, the unelected Commission propose legislation, the UK Civil Service don't.

Democracy already has a good definition. That doesn't need changing.

European Commission rejects petition against ‘undemocratic’ EU-US trade deal

"“The CETA deal, just like TTIP, is a charter for big business and a disaster for democracy. If it is agreed, it will undermine the power of democratically elected governments to make decisions in the public interest,” said Nick Dearden, director of the World Development Movement."

Would that be the much vaunted CETA deal that all brexiters want us to have a similar one to?

The one that has gone unsigned for a considerable amount of time?

Also you still misunderstand how the EU commision works:

" In most cases, the Commission makes proposals to meet its obligations under the EU treaties, or because another EU institution, country or stakeholder has asked it to act. From April 2012, EU citizens may also call on the Commission to propose laws (European Citizens’ Initiative)."

So it proposes laws, usually on request, and then has them ratified by the council of ministers/european parliament.

Much like our own civil service, and hardly undemocratic.

So it proposes laws, usually on request, and then has them ratified by the council of ministers/european parliament.

Much like our own civil service, and hardly undemocratic

That shows zero understanding of the purpose of HM's Civil Service.

The CS does not 'propose laws'. It advises and assists the Government to implement its policies.

The EU government often fast-tracks legislation with undemocratic secret trilogues. The UK government doesn't.

Trilogues: the system that undermines EU democracy and transparency (20 April 2016)

"Most of the legislation of the European Union (EU) is today adopted using an informal, non-democratic, non-accountable and non-transparent process. This mechanism is known in the EU bubble as “trilogues” or “trialogues”. Trilogues are a set of informal negotiations between the European Parliament, the Council of the European Union and the European Commission to fast-track legislation, with a view to reaching early agreements on legislation."

"Trilogue negotiations are worrisome mainly because

only a very limited number of participants negotiate for over 500 Million of people and their names are usually not disclosed;
negotiations are conducted behind closed doors;
trilogue documents are not released to the public as a general rule;
access to trilogue documents is often denied, as evidenced in EDRi’s freedom of information requests for the trilogue documents of the Telecoms Single Market Regulation (the regulation dealing with net neutrality in the EU), for example;
trilogues are subject to undue and undisclosed external pressure. Lobbyists can get an insight of trilogue negotiations if they become friendly with the negotiators. What about the general public? Wouldn’t you like to also have access to documents that will likely affect your life?;
trilogues profoundly undermine and weaken the position of the only directly democratically-elected institution in the EU, the European Parliament;
the process strips the decision-making process of accountability, because secrecy hides how the agreements are reached."

Lurked

Our elected MPs, who we can throw out after their term vote democratically in Parliament. What ever is decided is implemented by the civil service.

This is nothing like the process at the EU. Our CS does not make up daft and self interested laws behind closed doors. Junckers even admits he's not democratic and likes laws to be made in secret. He also complains that the country leaders listen too much to their whinging electorate. The man is an unelected and dangerous individual, cares not for the people and only for his own meglamania and that of the Euro superstate project.

All we are are to him are expendable tax cattle.

Vote to be ruled by him and we and our children will pay dearly for our loss of freedom and democracy.

Our forefathers faught and gave their lives for ours and your freedom. It's an utter disgrace to hand our country and sovereignty to a corrupt and self serving regime like the EU.

Voting to stay in the EU is voting for regressive rule that is nearer to dictstorship. One only has to listen to what Junckers says to realise this.

The EU have dismissed the wishes of the people on referenda. That is not democratic

The EU is NOT democratic nor does the EU operate like the UK.

.

Yoko

For a start, you are just one of 500 million people in the EU so by definition your vote counts for less than in the UK.

You vote for an MEP. Our MEP between then only have 9.7% of the vote round the EU table. This will get even less as more and more countries join. Statistically our MEP's could vote unanimously until they are blue in the face and lose every time. It is a falicy to imagine your vote counts for more in the EU than it does in the UK.

My vote counts for nothing in the UK because I vote Labour and end up with a Tory MP (an atrocious one at that)

Yoko - same here. My MP is the appalling Jeremy Hunt, and before he won the seat it had been held by Virginia Bottomley (one of his cousins) since the constituency was created (before I was born).

I vote because I feel it is my civic duty. But for me, there's no point even voting tactically. My only choice is which party I am going to give my protest vote to.

By contrast, in 2014 I voted for the Greens in the European Parliament elections, and the person whose name I put my cross against on the ballot paper is now an MEP and working hard to advance causes I care about in Europe. I feel a lot more democratically represented in Europe than I do in Westminster.

The size argument is a little strange because it only seems to apply when people want to criticise the EU. The UK is a whole lot bigger than Belgium, doesn't mean it's any less democratic.