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Brexit

In,out,shake it all about,the EU ,what's best to vote.

999 replies

Daisyonthegreen · 01/03/2016 12:49

Nothing on here,or am I wrong,I'm a newbie so be patient with me.
Anyhow here goes it's the Referendum on the European Union on the 23 June this year.
I'm voting Leave.
How's about you guys?

OP posts:
Daisyonthegreen · 11/03/2016 23:13

www.express.co.uk/news/politics/651881/Britain-EU-trade-deficit-EU-referendum-Brexit
Worth a read.

OP posts:
SpringingIntoAction · 11/03/2016 23:47

Count me in too with that sentiment Engineersthumb

Can't understand why someone feels the need to rush in, scream that, and shoot off again without an explanation

BTW it's (foul not fowl)

engineersthumb · 11/03/2016 23:51

Oops! I could blame autocorrect but I'd be lying:)

SpringingIntoAction · 11/03/2016 23:55

Grin It's late. It's Friday. Wine has been consumed here, so I'll probably make similar mistakes Smile

Andyhall · 12/03/2016 09:42

The advantages of leaving far outweigh the disadvantages. So it's a big fat leave from me.

OP posts:
Daisyonthegreen · 12/03/2016 16:09

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/12191579/True-scale-of-EU-migration-could-emerge-on-eve-of-referendum.html

! We could be told on the eve of the referendum!

OP posts:
Daisyonthegreen · 12/03/2016 16:20

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/12191661/The-EU-cheerleaders-are-starting-to-panic.html

Very interesting.

OP posts:
OP posts:
engineersthumb · 12/03/2016 21:58

Can anyone clearly state an issue that they think would be improved by a vote to leave the EU... without quoting a tabloid newspaper? Whilst I see issues with the EU I don't see those improving with a UK exit. In particular why do people think that our borders will be any more secure? We are not part of the Schengan zone(apologies for the spelling), acceptance of refugees is a condition of UN membership not EU membership.

SpringingIntoAction · 12/03/2016 22:07

OK

Let's get back to sovereignty. It’s the absolute right to control your own lives in a democratic nation, without interference from an outside superior power

  1. The right to make your own laws
  2. The right to defend yourself
  3. The right to raise your own taxes
  4. The right to control your own borders
  5. The right to trade freely with other nations

That's what we gain by leaving the EU.

engineersthumb · 12/03/2016 22:39

Springs list seems somewhat misguided. We do make our own rules, we would still have to respect international law. We can take unilateral military action, we would still have to respect international law. We alrasdy set our own taxes - no change. We are not part of Schengan so we slready control our own borders, We would still have to respect untied nation convention on refugees. We alresdy trade with the rest of the world and also benefit with from EU agreements on trade.
All in all exit doesn't seem to offer much does it?

Flisspaps · 12/03/2016 22:42

I'll vote to stay but I think the leave vote will win.

SpringingIntoAction · 12/03/2016 23:01

Can anyone clearly state an issue that they think would be improved by a vote to leave the EU... without quoting a tabloid newspaper? Whilst I see issues with the EU I don't see those improving with a UK exit. In particular why do people think that our borders will be any more secure? We are not part of the Schengan zone(apologies for the spelling), acceptance of refugees is a condition of UN membership not EU membership.

The questions you pose relate to no 4. on the list of attributes of sovereignty that I posted

  1. The right to control your borders.

Controlling your borders means that you can determine who and what enters your country, where it enters, for how long it is allowed to stay and what steps you will take to ensure your borders are not breached by over-staying visitors, or the presence of illegal immigrants and illegal goods. Control of borders extends to control of our territorial waters and fishing grounds. Control of our borders is not solely a security issue.

While we are in the EU, under the free movement of people, every EU citizen has the right to come to live in the UK.

Here are the official ONS figures for Nov 2015

The ONS data revealed that:
â—¾Net migration of European Union (EU) citizens showed an increase of 42,000 to 180,000, with the number from countries outside the bloc also up 36,000 to 201,000
â—¾In all, 294,000 people migrated to the UK for work, two thirds of whom had a definite job
â—¾The number of EU nationals working in the UK stood at two million from July to September, an increase of 324,000 compared to the same quarter last year
â—¾A total of 50,000 Romanians and Bulgarians came to the UK in the year to June, a rise of 19,000; restrictions on citizens from the two countries working in the UK were lifted in January last year
â—¾Romania is now in the top five countries where those coming to the UK last lived for the first time, accounting for 6% of all immigration

So 180,000 EU nationals came to live in the EU in the year ending Nov 2015. That number would fill a town the size of Crawley.

But the problem is that we have not built a new town the size of Crawley to accommodate these additional people.

In fact we have no idea from year to year how many EU citizens will actually come to live in the UK, so we are unable to ensure the services they will require in the UK are available. So we have an additional 180,000 people from EU countries all requiring housing, education, health care, welfare, social services, infrastructure jobs, etc.

That puts pressure on existing housing availability, causing prices and rents to rise. If the migrant is in a poorly paid job they may be entitled to housing benefit and other in-work benefits, the costs of which could outweigh any tax they pay. That migrant then becomes a net drain on the UK rather than a net benefit. Schools and hospitals also have to accommodate the needs of these additional UK residents.

The original intention of 'free movement' was that EU migrants who had a job could settle in the UK. That requirement has fallen by the wayside and migrants are permitted to come to the UK to seek work. The availability of cheap EU migrant labour depresses wages at a time when housing costs are rising.

And the consequence of having to accept uncontrolled migration into the Uk from EU countries means that, in an attempt to reduce the overall net immigration figures the Govt can only legislate to reduce non-EU migration. That means that skilled non-EU immigrants find it much harder to qualify to come to the UK to work, so we are in effect limiting the pool of skills on which the UK can draw on.

If we left the EU there would be no absolute right for an EU citizen to come to live and work in the UK. Instead we could introduce the type of immigration control that Australia and other countries use to ensure that we are able to invite those from across the world, who have the skills we need, to come to the UK. That would still allow EU nationals to come to live in the UK but would limit them to those with the skills we needed and would open competition to other non-EU migrants. this would reduce pressure on our housing, schools, education system, welfare etc and we would also be able to accurately predict and therefore plan for their arrival.

You asked about security and whether our borders would be any more secure. Only because with a properly controlled system of immigration we would have to have a much improved system of enforcing that immigration control and that would enhance our knowledge of how arrives/departs and overstays. I don't see security as a primary LEAVE issue. We have security services in or out of the EU.

engineersthumb · 12/03/2016 23:02

I think the vote it too close to call but I do think that the silent majority will want to stay... I hope anyway

SpringingIntoAction · 12/03/2016 23:31

Springs list seems somewhat misguided.

Soveriegnty has served us well for centuries before the EU Smile

We do make our own rules, we would still have to respect international law.

We cannot refuse to implement law that is handed to us by Brussels without incurring a penalty. If we breach an EU law the ECJ will rule against us. That means that our Supreme Court is not actually our supreme legal authority. Peter Lilley informed us that the last 72 times we sought a change in proposed laws our requests were all rejected by the EU. We voluntarily agree to respect international law and could as easily withdraw that consent.
So we make some of our law but must accept EU laws.

We can take unilateral military action, we would still have to respect international law.

Agreed. But defend ourselves is more than just military action. You need to look at the whole UK capability, how it is acquired (subject to EU rules) how it is maintained (subject to EU rules) and how it is deployed.

We alrasdy set our own taxes - no change.
We set some of our taxes. Other taxes must be imposed within certain ranges prescribed by the EU. Whether something is taxed or not is prescribed by the EU, hence Cameron having to ask permission to try to zero VAT female sanitary products. The EU is considering taxing e-vape products at the same rate as tobacco products. If they decided to do so we couldn't stop that.

We are not part of Schengan so we slready control our own borders

Controlling your borders is not simplistic passport control. It's immigration and migration, rights to reside in the UK. I'm not typing all that out again.

We would still have to respect untied nation convention on refugees.
Nothing to do with the EU as the UK has a proud tradition of assisting refugees long before the EU was dreamt of and will continue to do so post Brexit. We are not signatories to the EU's policy on refugee resettlement.

We alresdy trade with the rest of the world and also benefit with from EU agreements on trade.

It's really not as simple as that. This in itself is an essay subject.
Here are some headline issues on trade;
We have handed over control of our trade to the EU, which makes trade deals (very slowly) on behalf of all member countries so we may not always get the best deal for Britain
Meanwhile, we are prevented from making our own trade deals with emerging markets.
We must pay the EU money to trade with the rest of the world
Our ratio of trade with the EU is declining as our ratio of trade with the rest of the world increases - so we are shackled in trading terms to a declining market
The EU is a customs union that borders on a protectionist racket that prevents many developing countries from exporting their products to the EU as the EU is determined to shore up prices for its internal suppliers
The EU has no trade deal with China - but Iceland does.
The EU took 7 years to agree a trade deal with Canada.
I could go on - I won't. It's tedious and has been repeated many times before.

You win Engineersthumb. I will consider you a fully committed 100% REMAINer. But it helps to explore what sovereignty actually means instead of accepting the tests at face value.

All in all exit doesn't seem to offer much does it?

engineersthumb · 13/03/2016 08:53

Hi spring
I read your comments with interest. But they all seem to revolve around the idea that these issues or the ability to react to them would be made better by leaving the EU. However, most of these issues extend beyond the borders of the UK so require a much broader response and the EU whilst not perfect is one method of discussing and implementing that broarder response.
I support ever closer union because I believe in a United Europe where regulation and economic policy are harmonised such that there is no barrier to living, working or trading across EU states. It is disparity in regulation and ecconomics that causemany of today's issues. As for EU migration and benefits we should remember most people come to work not claim benefit. In-work benefits are paid to the low paid equally, perhaps we need to look at our society and ask is it right that the low paid, doing quite ordinary and important jobs, require benefit top ups in order to live adequately?
It will be a bumpy road and possibly not completely travelled in my life time but I think the goal of true European Union is worth perservering for. The alternative is looking backward, harping on about remembered glories and wondering why socioeconomic policies of yesterday no longer deliver what's needed today. The world changes and every state must change with it or stand by to be irrelevant.

twofingerstoGideon · 13/03/2016 08:54

I came to this thread hoping to see some real debate about the advantages and disadvantages of in/out and what do I find? A load of links to the Daily Mail and Daily Express.

No impartiality here then!

engineersthumb · 13/03/2016 09:01

Gideon I can't agree more. These papers should stoic to comic strip celebrities and food scares:)

Movingonmymind · 13/03/2016 09:07

Resolutely in. Engineer put the reasons why beautifully.

twofingerstoGideon · 13/03/2016 10:10

I'm veering towards in, but would like more impartial information. The more I see the personalities and newspapers that are supporting 'out', the more I am inclined to vote in. However, I know it's not about personalities and would never vote in an election based on personalities - it would be policies every time - but the paucity of unbiased information is quite shocking.

Andyhall · 13/03/2016 10:31

Someone said to me yesterday that the weak, the easily led, those that fear change, the pessimists and those that have vested interests will grote to remain.
Let's hope the brave and informed can win the argument.
I live in Bradford. Some of you ain't seen nothing yet.

twofingerstoGideon · 13/03/2016 10:46

Andy? 'Informed'? Where are the 'informed' getting their information from? The Express or the Mail (as above?)

twofingerstoGideon · 13/03/2016 10:49

the weak, the easily led, those that fear change, the pessimists and those that have vested interests will grote to remain. And this sounds like insubstantial rhetoric - a soundbite, which is attempting to imply that 'yes' voters are sheep.

Andyhall · 13/03/2016 11:44

The question is who do you believe? Cameron and Osborne who many on here deride but still want to remain or a coalition of politclans and leading business figures from different backgrounds who support brexit.
Cameron deal was basically nothing. His threats to the Eu of Britain leaving without a deal were basically Idle threats.
Look at Greece as an example of how good the Eu is for member states.