In,out,shake it all about,the EU ,what's best to vote.

[Daisyonthegreen]

Nothing on here,or am I wrong,I'm a newbie so be patient with me.
Anyhow here goes it's the Referendum on the European Union on the 23 June this year.
I'm voting Leave.
How's about you guys?

uk.businessinsider.com/reasons-why-uk-leaving-the-eu-brexit-is-a-good-idea-2015-10
An easy to understand article.

IMO if "we" blocked it it was because of the rules from the EU as mentioned in the very good Daily Mail newspaper.
The very good article also says how we are being discouraged from saving our own jobs here in the UK by the undemocratic EU.
Well worth a read.
Our successive governments have become infantilised by the finger wagging EU ,they need to learn how to govern once more.
This hopefully will be achieved on leaving the undemocratic EU.

Daisy any thoughts on butteredmuffin's question about whether or not you think the UK should remain part of the single market post-Brexit?

it'd also be nice if you answered in your own words instead of linking to generic and/or tabloid anti-EU articles, I believe most people here know how to google and this is a discussion forum.

sorry daisy, missed your previous post, which at least was in your own words! although it doesn't answer the single market question.

in the very good Daily Mail newspaper.

I don't have a problem with the concept of how the EU and the single market work. (I'm actually writing a dissertation on it at the moment.) The problem I have is the lack of any coherent plan for what happens post-Brexit. In that sense, it is extremely similar to the Scottish referendum. The SNP were saying that Scotland would continue to use the pound, and that they would have EU membership, despite everyone with a say in the matter saying, "no, that's not right". The yes campaign expected voters to believe everyone else was just bluffing, and that if they voted yes, they would get everything they wanted.

For me, the single biggest problem with the leave campaign is that no one is prepared to say whether we would remain in the single market or not. I've heard so many people talking about how prosperous Norway and Switzerland are without being part of the EU. But Norway is, to all intents and purposes, part of the EU. They contribute to the EU budget, they have to accept free movement, and they have to comply with most EU regulations even though they are not represented in the European Parliament and have almost no input into EU policy at all. The relationship with Switzerland is a little less close and a bit more fluid, but the situation is broadly the same. They still have to play by the rules if they want access to the single market, and if they decide to stop playing by the rules, they find their access is curtailed. So leaving the EU but remaining in the single market under an EEA/EFTA arrangement will change nothing. It is important that "leave" voters understand that if this happens, basically none of their concerns about EU membership will be addressed.

If your position is that we should leave the single market altogether, I would like to see more discussion of what the likely effects of that would be. We would lose access to all the free trade agreements the EU currently has with third countries, so we would be in the position of having to renegotiate new agreements from scratch. With the best will in the world, that can take many years. The only analysis I have really seen on this is from economists, who seem to conclude that leaving the single market would most likely have a very turbulent effect on the economy at least for the foreseeable future, and after that, it's anyone's guess. I would like to see some discussion on this which is a little more sophisticated than "people will want to trade with us because it's in their best interests".

Either way, this is not what we are being asked to vote on. We are being asked to vote for remain or leave. We are not being given a say on whether leave would mean remaining part of the single market or not. And that it what I find so problematic about the whole thing.

"IMO if "we" blocked it it was because of the rules from the EU as mentioned in the very good Daily Mail newspaper"

Daisy, we blocked it because our politicians do not want to damage our "special relationship" with China. These same politicians are to be found in the Brexit camp, beating their chests and banging their drums about the fact that we don't currently have a free trade agreement with China because the EU doesn't have a free trade agreement with China and we're not allowed to negotiate our own free trade agreements independently of the EU.

The reason the EU doesn't currently have a free trade agreement with China is because China doesn't like to play by the same rules. Which is why the steel industry is currently in crisis.

So how do you think leaving the EU would help our steel industry?

So leaving the EU but remaining in the single market under an EEA/EFTA arrangement will change nothing. It is important that "leave" voters understand that if this happens, basically none of their concerns about EU membership will be addressed.

I strongly suspect this is what will happen in the end, because most mainstream politicians (including Boris) know it would be too risky to leave the single market. It'll be their cynical way to circumvent a democratic Brexit vote.

And of course the Brexit campaign don't want to talk about the issue, it's lose/lose for them, because neither option is appealing to their core voters. They're trying to have their cake and eat it too with vague promises that Britain will regain its sovereignty and somehow still manage to trade freely with the EU.

puts cynical hat on

I suspect that for certain Tory politicians, this is the plan. We vote leave, UKIP are happy and hopefully go away, we negotiate a deal to remain in the single market, nothing really changes but people feel they've had their say and the threat to the Tories from UKIP has subsided.

But it is important for people to realise that if this happens, we will have less democracy, not more. The only thing that really will change is that we will no longer be represented in the European Parliament, our prime minister will no longer have a seat on the Council, and we will no longer have representatives in the Commission. Personally I can't see how that is more attractive than staying in.

butteredmuffin

...and the Brexit Tories all get fancy government jobs. Yep.

I don't think UKIP will be happy as such, but it'll be a lot less easy to mount a populist anti-EEA campaign, so they'll have lost a lot of political firepower.

"...and the Brexit Tories all get fancy government jobs"

Ugh. Grim. The cabinet already looks like a Disney villains convention.

I suspect I will end up living abroad eventually either way.

And in the three minutes since I posted that I am now getting targeted ads for Disneyland Paris. Coincidence?

EU conspiracy, clearly.

Damn those Brussels bureaucrats. Bet they've all got shares in Eurostar.

the Panama papers will reveal all. (wish I was 100% joking here)

buttered muffin,
you have been rumbled by your own admission,you tell us you are writing a dissertation and obviously want me and others to help.No thanks.Do your own research
It is obvious to a child that the EU is not fit for purpose,is defunct.I shall with a happy heart vote Leave to protect my country.We will prosper.

Strange situation isn't it.

The Conservative Party is the biggest advocate of staying in. There are LGBT, Labour & SWP supporters for 'Lexit' as they call it.

But anyone on MN in favour of Brexit is generally regarded as BNP/Nazi/racist.

Do you consider yourself a Lexit supporter HelpfulChap?

I would happily (and sympathetically) engage with Lexit arguments if they were actually being voiced here, but all I've seen are arguments about immigration and sovereignty, which are rather arguments on the right end of the spectrum.

Daisy, are you kidding me? If I was looking for help with my dissertation, I would not be on Mumsnet hoping for people to point me in the right direction with some helpful articles from the Daily Mail!

I'm here because I'm trying to understand other people's views.

You still haven't answered my question about whether you think we will (or should) remain part of the single market or not. And to be honest, I can't really say I blame you. Most people don't seem to understand that this is the most important question. This is what it comes down to at the end of the day. And the reason voters have not been told this is because it is not what they are being asked to vote on.

The way I see it, if you are a politician campaigning for Brexit, you fall into one of three categories:

1. You think we should vote to leave the EU and negotiate a deal to remain in the single market, similar to Norway.

1. You think we should vote to leave the EU and negotiate a deal which will result in us having full access to the single market, but with special rules for the UK (most significantly, having full control over our borders and full sovereignty over our own laws).

1. You think we should leave the single market altogether and go it alone.

Interestingly, I can think of very few politicians campaigning for Brexit who have made it clear which category they fall into. But let me spell it out to you.

Option 1 is fundamentally dishonest. Option 1 means a symbolic victory for Brexit voters, but one which will be essentially meaningless and will not address any of the issues voters are concerned about.

Option 2 is a fantasy. This is simply not going to happen. It would require all remaining 27 member states to unanimously agree to re-write the rules of the single market, just for the UK. It is never going to happen.

Which leaves Option 3. If you are a politician campaigning for Brexit, Option 3 is the only honest position to take. And if you are going to take that position, it is only honest if you are upfront about what this could actually mean in practice.

Daisy, are you kidding me? If I was looking for help with my dissertation, I would not be on Mumsnet hoping for people to point me in the right direction with some helpful articles from the Daily Mail!

I'm here because I'm trying to understand other people's views.

You still haven't answered my question about whether you think we will (or should) remain part of the single market or not. And to be honest, I can't really say I blame you. Most people don't seem to understand that this is the most important question. This is what it comes down to at the end of the day. And the reason voters have not been told this is because it is not what they are being asked to vote on.

The way I see it, if you are a politician campaigning for Brexit, you fall into one of three categories:

1. You think we should vote to leave the EU and negotiate a deal to remain in the single market, similar to Norway.

1. You think we should vote to leave the EU and negotiate a deal which will result in us having full access to the single market, but with special rules for the UK (most significantly, having full control over our borders and full sovereignty over our own laws).

1. You think we should leave the single market altogether and go it alone.

Interestingly, I can think of very few politicians campaigning for Brexit who have made it clear which category they fall into. But let me spell it out to you.

Option 1 is fundamentally dishonest. Option 1 means a symbolic victory for Brexit voters, but one which will be essentially meaningless and will not address any of the issues voters are concerned about.

Option 2 is a fantasy. This is simply not going to happen. It would require all remaining 27 member states to unanimously agree to re-write the rules of the single market, just for the UK. It is never going to happen.

Which leaves Option 3. If you are a politician campaigning for Brexit, Option 3 is the only honest position to take. And if you are going to take that position, it is only honest if you are upfront about what this could actually mean in practice.

(Sorry for the double post.)

Helpful Chap
You as ever speak sense and don't write"War and Peace" to do it.

Daisy, no War and Peace required: would you be in favour of Britain leaving the Common Market post-Brexit, yes or no?

It's a fundamental decision that would affect all of the issues you complain about, so surely you've given this some thought.

Daisy, most of the words I used in that post contained one or two syllables. Sorry if you think my answers are a bit long but this is clearly a complex issue and there are no simple answers.

buttered muffin

If you're doing a dissertation can I recommend to you Churchill's book 'Thoughts and Adventures' written in 1932 following his period as Chancellor if the Exchequer. In the chapter ' Parliamentary Government and the Economic Problem' he discusses the democracy, sovereignty and the difficulties associated with free trade and tariffs. It's as relevant now as it was when he wrote it.

Writing about the Houses if Parliament he says
I regard these Parliamentary institutions as precious to us almost beyond compare they seem to give by far the closest association yet achieved between the life of the people and the action of the State.
They possess apparently an unlimited capacity of adaptive ness, and the stand as an effective buffer against every firm of revolutionary or reactionary violence. It should be the duty if faithful subjects to preserve these institutions in their healthy vigour, to guard them against the encroachment I'd external forces and to revivify them from one generation to another.

Churchill said that, it only when you have a secure, self-determining, democratic system, can you then address the economic issues, such as trade. He then discusses the various ways in which trade could be improved,, including a solely 'Economic Parliament' which would be a sub-set of Parliament but still answerable to the senior Parliament

It really is an interesting slant on the current situation

What is clear is that nations can trade between themselves to agreed standards without having to enter into the sort of EU political union with the consequent loss of sovereignty that entails.

We should be able to trade will all the nation's of the world, unfettered by the EU. The EU is a protectionist customs union that actually prevents us from making trade agreements with the 168 other countries in the world and bars theirs world countries from trading freely with richer countries in the EU.

When you understand that the ultimate goal of the EU is ever closer union which effectively means a Single European Superstate then you begin to understand that it doesn't really matter how competitive this country or any of the other EU countries actually as as if we as a nation improve our production, we get hammered by the EU for additional EU payments because we have improved our production - as happens last year when the EU suddenly slapped a £1.6billion bill in us for doing just that.

In that scenario the UK's is just acting as aproductive cash cow propping up failing EU member countries. These countries were traditionally our competitors - now we subsidise their inefficiency. It's almost a form of Communism where every country is 'harmonised' into the same rules and regulations. And just like Communism it will fail, because there is no reward for working harder than your neighbour and only the elite ( those that run and who and benefit from the EU) actually drive around in Zils

So I maintain that leaving the EU, making our own laws, trading with the whole world in a mutually acceptable basis will be good for the UK's and good for the rest if the world too