In,out,shake it all about,the EU ,what's best to vote.

[Daisyonthegreen]

Nothing on here,or am I wrong,I'm a newbie so be patient with me.
Anyhow here goes it's the Referendum on the European Union on the 23 June this year.
I'm voting Leave.
How's about you guys?

In that case I take it that you are in favour of leaving the single market altogether then. Fine. As I said, I think that is the only valid position to take if you want to leave the EU.

But bear in mind two things:

(1) This is not what we are being asked to vote on. So if you vote leave, you take the risk that the result we end up with will essentially be a symbolic victory, a continuation of the status quo in all material respects, and less democracy, not more.

(2) If we do leave the single market altogether, this is the most risky outcome from an economic point of view. All the analysis I have read on this by economists appears to conclude that leaving the single market would have a negative effect on the economy in the short to medium term, and after that, it's anyone's guess.

I think the only coherent position for Brexit supporters to take is to advocate that we leave the single market, accept that this will have negative economic consequences, but argue that it is an economic price worth paying for the recovery of British sovereignty.

I absolutely don't agree, but at least it'd be a coherent position that I could respect.

And of course no politician will ever openly take this position, because they realise that admitting the economic risks would lose them a very substantial proportion of the electorate.

Chalalala - yes, spot on.

Your view rests on two assumptions chalalala.

1. The EU is economically strong, the Euro will continue, there will be no political economic crisis that blows back on the UK.

1. That the politicians, civil service and the legal profession in the square mile aren't capable of negotiating good deals when they have a blank slate and the whole world is their oyster.

I think we've already demonstrated exactly how good we are at negotiating.

SpringintoAction
2016 A new year for me.
Well said.

www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-3522117/DAILY-MAIL-COMMENT-public-seeing-Project-Fear.html
I think we know when we rumble people who don't really care about this country and its people.
We have an innate sense,that is why anyone with any true regard for the future of their children and themselves will vote Leave on June 23rd 2016.
We are a capable country that will thrive out of this madness that is the EU.
Please view the many links in past posts for masses of information on the benefits of leaving.

Good news,and as I have said before I know many businessmen who cannot wait to vote leave.
www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/04/01/british-businesses-shrug-off-brexit-threat/

I think we've already demonstrated exactly how good we are at negotiating.

So very true Buttered.

Cameron' was never seriously negotiating. He knew (or should have known) he would get nowhere after he said right at the beginning that he was for staying IN

Cameron would be ousted within hours of a LEAVE vote. it wouldn't be Cameron who would be negotiating our BREXIT terms. We would have people who understood the EU, who've spent decades building up a body of knowledge about the EU and its workings.

And if we cannot deal a mutually acceptable deal with the EU we can fall back on our World Trade Organisation membership. Meanwhile we would also be making trade deals with the rest of he world too - something that being in the EU prevents us from doing.

Trade won't stop - even if Anna Soubry, the Tory MP says it would.

SpringintoAction
Exactly
Plus I must post this
www.express.co.uk/news/politics/657986/Brexit-Andrea-Leadsom
It is well worth reading and so true.

"I think we know when we rumble people who don't really care about this country and its people.
We have an innate sense,that is why anyone with any true regard for the future of their children and themselves will vote Leave on June 23rd 2016."

I don't think this contributes very much to the debate. Everyone is voting for what they think is best for them, their children and the country as a whole, because for most people, those things are not separable.

I believe that leaving the EU would be bad for me, bad for my (as yet non-existent) children's future and bad for the country as a whole, and that is why I will be voting to remain.

Personally, I will be fine either way. I'm about to get my master's degree in EU law which will be relevant to my job whether we stay or leave, and whether I stay in the UK or go to work elsewhere. My partner is from another European country, so if we vote to leave we will get married sooner rather than later so I can apply for dual nationality. We will then live wherever is right for us as a couple (and hopefully later as a family).

But in future years, whether I continue to live in the UK or go and live somewhere else, I have no desire to see my home country in difficulty, or to see people suffering from any negative economic consequences if we leave and things don't go so well. And as a matter of national pride, I don't really want the UK to be a laughing stock.

Look at our politicians. David Cameron failed to achieve anything meaningful in his negotiations, but I can't see anyone else out there who I think would do a better job. They're all a bunch of muppets, frankly. If these are the people who will be negotiating the UK's new position in the world post Brexit, then I think we will most likely get our arses handed to us.

And Daisy - NOTHING in the Daily Express (or the Daily Mail) is "worth reading".

An excellent article I post below.
www.spectator.co.uk/2016/02/whether-or-not-britain-leaves-the-eu-must-change-or-fall-apart/
The EU has become a sad place,it was all good intentions many many years ago but has become unwieldy and most abhorrently undemocratic.
Economically and socially it is not fit for purpose.

It would be nice if you could contribute something other than posting links to articles other people have written.

Either way, you have clearly made your mind up and so have I. We are not going to agree.

I hope we vote to remain in. If we vote to leave, we will just have to see how it plays out. If you are right, and we are absolutely fine, then no harm done. (In fact, if I have dual nationality by then, I will get to enjoy the best of both worlds.) If I am right and leaving the EU turns out to be a big mistake, being in a position to say "I told you so" will give me no pleasure at all. Because I do love this country, despite what you might believe.

Many people have no ability or intention of absconding abroad,they see the here and now and believe me when/ if one becomes a parent views alter dramatically.
Ones protective instincts come to the fore.
The EU is a monolithic machine trundling along not taking into account social views or cares let alone economic ones.
A parent will know to vote Leave instinctively.

"Absconding"?

I happen to be in a relationship with someone from another country. We cannot live in both countries at the same time, so we will have to choose. That is not a crime. But I do appreciate that not everyone will have that choice if we lose our free movement rights.

And I know lots of people who are parents and are voting to remain.

I think you're being very childish now, and we've probably gone beyond the point where this conversation is constructive.

Have a good evening.

"I think the only coherent position for Brexit supporters to take is to advocate that we leave the single market, accept that this will have negative economic consequences, but argue that it is an economic price worth paying for the recovery of British sovereignty."
I agree, with the following caveat. I think we can be fairly certain that brexit will make us worse off over the short to medium term (the debate is apparently hurting employment figures now). I don't think we can be certain of the consequences over the longer term, partly because the EU is not static, and if we stay in, it may well move in a direction which leaves us marginalized anyway (closer Eurozone integration etc).

A parent will know to vote Leave instinctively

good one Daisy.

Chalalala, do you think Daisy would be more incensed by the idea of me "absconding abroad" to live with my boyfriend, or bringing an immigrant here to live with me? Or should I just chuck the whole thing in and find an English man?

Karlos
I met two Greeks recently,lovely people they said "please vote leave,we wish we could ",my heart went out to them.
Fortune favours the brave,we will flourish.

you might, Daisy. I won't. And your puerile assertions will not pay the bills for supporting my family when I lose my job.
I think you owe it to your country to approach the issues in a more serious manner than you are.

tough choice butteredmuffin, tough choice.

(but I have you beat - I'm an EU immigrant who used the EU (well, the EEA actually ) to bring a non-EU immigrant to the UK )

Karlos
I can assure you I treat this seriously,obviously.
The Greek people I met were so dejected and genuinely wished they could be free of this whole mess.The reasons for leaving are evident in many assertions and posts of mine and others on here.

I don't think we can be certain of the consequences over the longer term, partly because the EU is not static, and if we stay in, it may well move in a direction which leaves us marginalized anyway (closer Eurozone integration etc).

Yes, I would agree with that

Britain has been swimming against the EU tide for a long time now, but in a strange way it's been working out pretty well for the country. There may come a time when Britain's non-eurozone position is no longer tenable or profitable, but we haven't reached that point yet.

oops sorry I messed up my italics