White women, please be honest about this

[Lightsmother]

I’m a South Asian woman and genuinely feel white women are unable to fully connect with me in the same way they are with other white women. I don’t feel a genuine solidarity or sisterhood coming from them, regardless of how hard I try or attempt to fit in with their norms.

When you meet a non-white woman, do you really see through her race?

From school to university and now parenthood, it’s a difficult experience and I am constantly considering how each meeting and interaction would go if I were white.

@Livelovebehappy

Definitely culture. I have many friends in work who are Asian, who I get on with so well. But there are things I avoid talking with them about due to cultural differences so that I don’t offend them. I find i have to analyse responses and conversations in my head before speaking. But I also think that they probably are the same towards me, in that we don’t have enough in common to form strong friendships.

This is just so unnatural, though. Humans are not programmed to be so fearful of each other. It’s such a shame people can’t just confront differences head on, instead of skirting around them.

I don't have any darker skinned friends. But I met a lovely Muslim at the school gates. We've really clicked. Her humour is the same and we had both our kids at the same time it turned out. So we've really gelled. She's lovely.

I would absolutely gel with anyone with the right personality

I have friends of a broad variety of races and my husband isnt white. My kids are mixed race.

I also agree that culture affects our friendships and interactions more than skin colour does.
Also- this is not to sound rude but if you find you are having an issue with everyone you interact with then maybe its the way you are interacting?

Please note that I am NOT denying the effects of racism (my H and I have both been targets of it due to our relationship so I dont deny in any way that racism is sadly common) but if you are experiencing the EXACT same issue with literally every single person you meet then maybe its time to self reflect a bit on how you come across and the unconscious messages you are sending to others. Its not either/or.
Racism can exist and you might also still be approaching people in a manner not conducive to deepening friendships.

@DancingCatGif that’s very true.

Given that there aren’t many such women near me the issue is unlikely to come up!

I am rather disturbed at being called 'white woman'. It's as racist as being called 'black woman' or 'brown woman'. Please don't exacerbate racism by referring to people this way.

I am defined by my culture, not by the colour of my skin. I have friends of all colours. I don't notice their colour, only whether we share common ways of thinking, open-mindedness, sense of humour etc.

Hi OP. I am an immigrant here and BAME. I have found that only other BAME people have made an effort and we have a relationship.

I have made massive efforts to integrate and create a social support network in this country with locals for the 21 years I have lived here to no avail.

I do consider myself to be a nice person, generous, loving and kind but none of my efforts have been reciprocated.

This has resulted in us feeling like we are only here to work but not welcome or wanted. We never get invited anywhere.

We have some friends that are also BAME and they say the same. We all live in West Yorkshire so maybe the North is not the friendly place people think it is.

"I am rather disturbed at being called 'white woman'. It's as racist as being called 'black woman' or 'brown woman'. Please don't exacerbate racism by referring to people this way."

What on earth is this nonsense?

I've never met anyone who thinks being called black or white or brown is racist, unless it is entirely unnecessary and irrelevant.

Pretending race doesn't exist, however, is pretty racist.

I'm white British and have found baby groups extremely cliquey and I never felt welcomed tbh, the same with nursery and school.

Dubai is a huge mixing pot of nationalities.

Eh, not really. There's a fairly clear ethnic hierarchy ranging from Emiratis through white westerners and Arabs from Syria/Lebanon, Filipinos, down to the Pakistani/Bangladeshi/Indian/Sri Lankan/Ethiopian maids and labourers. The racial hierarchy holds good for work hierarchies, payscales etc, and you can specify the nationality (and hence the ethnicity) you want in job adverts.

Doesn't make a difference to me. I grew up in a different society, with a lot of Asian kids at school, university... Many with a more 'local' accent and assimilated families than mine. We were all immigrants.

Just had an interesting conversation with my friend as I mentioned unthread I would.

Permission to post.

She said she never felt that she was different to us or that we treated her differently. She was born in Britain and sees herself as British.

But her difficulties was her family still being tied to their culture and that preventing her joining us on things.

She said it's been easier as an adult because she can make her own choices and despite enjoying time with her family and engaging in that culture she can be as British as she wants and has raised her children that way and just feels part of the group as any of us do.

She did say though that the biggest positive for her was we always included her, invited her and asked her to events etc even when we knew her parents wouldn't allow it. We never assumed she couldn't join in.

Answering the question upthread about why people have to ‘think’ about what they say before speaking, an example in our situation was a colleague at work discussing bringing food into work for a birthday celebration. It was during Ramadam, and a complaint was made to management that it was an insensitive discussion to have whilst some colleagues were having to fast. An apology was made by the colleague, but it hadnt been a malicious comment. I guess it’s just having to have more awareness of people’s situations.

I’m white and from somewhere where there was and still is little ethnic diversity but my childhood best friend of 40 years is Asian, and 3 of my closest friends from the last 15 hrs now where I live are mixed race Asian, black, Middle Eastern.
I’ve connected with these women purely on an emotional and intellectual level and their skin colour and cultural background have not affected that in any way I think. And they feel the same with me I hope.

‘I am rather disturbed at being called 'white woman'. It's as racist as being called 'black woman' or 'brown woman'’

Really??? What nonsense is this...

I think that there is a huge variety of different cultures and experiences and subtle gradations. It's best to listen and be interested. Friendship and love depend on so many factors about how you interact, and certainly are possible across cultures.

I’m in east london now, but raised in a home county, went to a very white grammar school. Husband is white (not British) and my two kids are therefore mixed.

As for those commenting on me politely requesting people to not to throw shade - the issue is this. I started this post asking white women for a genuine opinion - I’m honestly curious (as a non white person) what white people think. I wasn’t seeking help, I was just open about how I felt and wanted the same from you.

Yes! When I was young and living in London I had a lot of non-white friends, from south africa, brazil. I think we clicked partly because we were ''young and in london but not from london"' and there is a lot of common ground. Now that I'm back in Ireland, I have no non-white friends as I'm ''from round here''. I find it hard to make friends now at my advanced age! I certainly wouldn't be rejecting the hand of friendship from somebody I clicked with and felt affection for.

One of my best friends also a South Asian woman, born in England to Pakistani parents, with a mother who didn’t speak much english. I have never thought about cultural differences between us. We have always had a lot to talk about and got on really well from the moment we met. We have been friends for over 30 years. The small differences in the way we grew up are not unique to my friendship with her, I have white friends who had very different childhoods from mine. With friends I look for common ground, it can be sensibility, humour, shared interests. Maybe the women you know have become friends because you have known them for a long time, rather than because you really like them and enjoy their company ?

@Livelovebehappy

Answering the question upthread about why people have to ‘think’ about what they say before speaking, an example in our situation was a colleague at work discussing bringing food into work for a birthday celebration. It was during Ramadam, and a complaint was made to management that it was an insensitive discussion to have whilst some colleagues were having to fast. An apology was made by the colleague, but it hadnt been a malicious comment. I guess it’s just having to have more awareness of people’s situations.

I would be very angry if I was asked to apologise for this. This is exactly what I mean. Offence taken where none was intended.

I can’t tolerate like the sun, should I demand people apologise for suggesting a lunch in full sun? If I’m Catholic, should my colleagues have to avoid talking about abortion in front of me?

It was during Ramadam, and a complaint was made to management that it was an insensitive discussion to have whilst some colleagues were having to fast.

But who made the complaint? Was it a fasting Muslim, or some non-Muslim colleague with a misplaced idea of racial/religious sensitivity?

I've worked with large numbers of Muslims for years, and I have never come across anyone who had the remotest objection to people eating or drinking in front of them during Ramadan most of them viewed it as part of the experience of Ramadan in an 'offering it up' way that reminds me very strongly of my own Catholic childhood) far less merely discussing something food-related during Ramadan.

It's the religion, I would make assumptions you are muslim or hindu. - And it would be the religion, not the race, for anyone, for example, a staunch Baptist, or a staunch Roman Catholic.
I'm not religious and in my eyes I see women held down by patriarchal rules due to the religion they choose. So I would feel I didn't have a great deal in common with them (and I have discovered I have little in common with them).

Since the OP did not mention religion, why would you assume anything? For the record, my friends include atheists as well as Hindus, Moslems, Christians. I grew up with friends from all these religious groups, as I'm from a country where they have just about equal status. My very best friend was a Hindu, I'm not. My parents were staunch atheists. I won't mention my own spiritual or otherwise leaning here as it is irrelevant; I only speak of such matters with people of similar leanings. I can still be very close friends with those that are different.
In my experience, though, it is often the atheists who discriminate the most, as in your post! You've already dismissed people from all these groups as friends.

Would you class yourself as at least a little introverted @Lightsmother. I am, and my whole life ive felt that it has affected the quality of my friendships with other women. They seem to pick up on a certain hesitancy or lack of confidence with regards to friendship, even though I try hard to hide it. I do have good friends because I've stayed in the same place for years and made friends with socially adept, very nice women but I often feel they have a more relaxed natural relationship with others and I tend to overthink interactions and feel slightly on the sidelines sometimes.

What FlySheMust says. It is rather naive to talk about "seeing through" someone's colour - it is part of the person. In the same way, when I lived in England as a Scot, this was alway part of the way people related to me. That doesn't mean you can't embrace the differences, I made many wonderful friends during that period in my life. It's about accommodating difference, not negating it.

^^ I should have mentioned Jews, Sikhs, Buddhists, Parsis etc. I'm 68, and have made many friends in my life!

by your logic then you can't fully relate to me, OP, as a white woman I am too much of an 'Other' to you, too. Am I supposed to be unhappy about that? Do you think you'd like me much better if we shared an ethnicity - why? Do you think I get some kind of privilege that there are more white woman available to me to be friends with compared to how many women of colour you have available, maybe?

Does it matter? Are not each of us an island from each other? You're manufacturing barriers that only need to be as important as you decide to make them.

Most (?all) of my close friends in life were not "like me", fwiw. I superficially seem like a conventional white person but no one is "like me", least of all my closest friends. I can't be bothered to write the whole list out.