White women, please be honest about this

[Lightsmother]

I’m a South Asian woman and genuinely feel white women are unable to fully connect with me in the same way they are with other white women. I don’t feel a genuine solidarity or sisterhood coming from them, regardless of how hard I try or attempt to fit in with their norms.

When you meet a non-white woman, do you really see through her race?

From school to university and now parenthood, it’s a difficult experience and I am constantly considering how each meeting and interaction would go if I were white.

Where I live most non-white women are Muslims who don't drink or go to pubs. I'm not a heavy drinker, but this is how I make friends so I think that's one reason why I don't tend to move from acquaintance to friend with women of colour where I live. Also, I just don't meet many despite there being quite a few. I suppose we just don't move in the same circles.

@StuntPond

I personally feel self conscious and I worry about offending and making some faux pas that you may be offended by and that you may judge me for. I don't feel truly comfortable even though I may like you a lot.

This keeps coming up on the thread, accompanied by much hand-wringing, but no one ever clarifies what kind of terrible 'faux pas' you are so terrified of making that it prevents you ever making friends with someone of another ethnicity -- could some of the people who've said this give concrete examples of these horrors they fear they will commit?

Well there is the mixed race child in my child’s class who goes to the teacher whenever the word “black“ is mentioned (even in relation to something having the colour black eg a pirate hat) because they’ve had it drummed into them that it’s “bad“ to mention skin colour.

@fascinated, I agree. I live in such a place. Very hard indeed.

I don't think it's anything to do with skin colour, I think its culture.

It's this. I married a German and lived in Germany for over 40 years. I found it incredibly hard at first to connect to German women, even though I was very young at the time and generally made friends easily. I thought it was all due to my skin colour -- I am dark-skinned.
Then I got in with the English speaking ex-pat community in my area. These were people from the UK, USA, Australia, Canada, etc, and some Germans -- the thing linking us was that we spoke English. I got on like a house on fire with these people, and the one thing they all whinged about was getting used to German culture, and Germans!
I made some lieflong white friends in that community, in particular a group of women who are from Australia, England, USA, Canada. Some of us still meet once a year, even though none of us live in Germany any more!

I also realised that I myself was tense and suspicious with Germans, and over the years learned to adapt to their culture. As a result I now have many very close German female friends, and last year I made a trip back and visited them all -- they are all white and I love them to bits, and it is mutual!

Now I don't even notice when I am the only non-white people in a community, which is usually the case. Or if I notice, I just smile to myself and move on -- it doesn't matter at all!

What does “throwing shade” even mean? It’s just gibberish.

Sorry, I don't necessarily agree with that Goat in the Garden. My DC have been in 5 different schools with children from all over the world and with different colours and cultures. They really do not give a crap about the other DC's make up. They gravitate to who they get on with and who else likes Pokemon/ Lego/ football. Even at age 14, my DS doesn't give a damn about differences between people. It's adults that cause divisions. That boy probably did feel a bit different but I bet if the class was more mixed he wouldn't care that much.

Its not dim its a fact, so everything has to be black or white does it, because you are not allowed to mention the word "colour" any more oh or red.

What on earth are you talking about, @nannybeach? Who has forbidden you from using the word 'colour'? Are you confused, and referring the word 'coloured', which, yes, is dated and considered pejorative, and has been for quite some time?

And what do you mean by 'red'?

@StuntPond

This keeps coming up on the thread, accompanied by much hand-wringing, but no one ever clarifies what kind of terrible 'faux pas' you are so terrified of making that it prevents you ever making friends with someone of another ethnicity -- could some of the people who've said this give concrete examples of these horrors they fear they will commit?

Well my son gets confused when his friends like to touch his hair, and this is quite a big issue for a lot of black people.

I think people feel most comfortable with what is familiar to them. And re being friends with people of a different culture, I’d always assume that people wouldn’t want to be friends with me! That they’d rather be friends with someone who ‘got them’ a bit more. So in your case, friends with other British Asian women. So I’d be less likely to try to make friends through fear of rejection.

I don't 'see through' race - because race matters and not recognising it erases people. I'd see someone's race in the same way I'd see their age, social class, sex etc.

Race/skin colour doesn't matter to me at all when it comes to wanting to be friends with someone.

However, it can be difficult to become close friends with someone from a very different culture. For example, on maternity leave I met a lot of non-British born Nepalese, Bangladeshi, Eastern European, Nigerian and Ghanaian women. While we're friends in the sense we'd stop and chat, I didn't quite gel with them as I found them often rude and judgmental about (what they assumed was) British people and culture. They'd often say incredibly rude things, or our backgrounds and cultural touch points would be so different that we wouldn't have enough common ground (attitudes on lgbt, blm, women working, premarital sex, child rearing etc. And I wasn't the one bringing these things up).

Equally- I think many non-British born people find English people cold, biting, reserved, quiet, prickly, defensive etc. At least at first.

I tend to have mainly British-born friends from varying races or people from Antipodean or European countries.

Well there is the mixed race child in my child’s class who goes to the teacher whenever the word “black“ is mentioned (even in relation to something having the colour black eg a pirate hat) because they’ve had it drummed into them that it’s “bad“ to mention skin colour.

But that is a (presumably) young child who is confused. Are you suggesting that you're afraid that if you asked for black coffee while out with a non-white acquaintance, they would consider it a racial slur?

I love people, and would be really happy to have friends of different cultures. I am always slightly anxious about saying something wrong though. We don’t live in a very diverse area, so perhaps that anxiety is heightened by not being surrounded by people from different cultures. I met a lovely Muslim woman on a group walk the other day though, and immediately thought I’d like to be her friend, just as I have when I’ve first met my other friends.

I’ve also heard lots of talk about “micro aggressions” such as mentioning hair, other physical characteristics. I am genuinely curious about things like hair and skin, and what it is like to wear the veil etc etc, so I’d love to ask, but I never would because there is now a sense that this could only be motivated by racism, rather than genuine interest. I’m frustrated by these things, which to me throw up barriers between people. If someone wanted to ask me about the nuances of my (minority) culture, in an interested way rather than a derogatory way, and I think I could tell the diffference, having had plenty of hostility in the past about it) I’d find it positive, but it seems these nuances are entirely lost on many activists.

Are you confusing race with culture? I'm white (technically mixed, but people think I'm dark white!) and have plenty of non-white friends. However I do struggle to feel close to some friends whose cultures or religions I find tricky. For example, I have a Britishfriend of Bangladeshi heritage who is Muslim and totally of the belief that women are subordinate to men. I really can't connect on any meaningful level with someone who believes that.

@Aesopfable

I am a white woman from one part of the uk living in another part of the uk and find it hard to make close friends with ‘locals’. Part of this is down to the fact that they don’t need new friends - they have grown up with an extended network of friends, family, family friends and most of their friends are part of that network that is hard to break into. They have shared history and understanding with them they don’t have with me. Most of my friends are other non-locals, many from other countries.

I can sort of relate to that. I think many places are quite xenophobic. I live in a rural part of South Yorkshire and I don't find it difficult to make friends, but looking around my friendship group most of my friends are from elsewhere - Herfordhsire, the North East, Cheshire, Coventry, the US, the South East and West Yorkshire.

I don't currently have any non-white friends, purely because where I live and socialise has very few non-white people living here. I have done in the past though.

At secondary school one of my best friends was South Asian (it was a very white school, there was only one non-white family in the whole school when I was there). We hung out as a group at school, and there was no difference between any of us. There was a difference in how we socialise outside of school though, as she wasn't allowed to come to our houses, and in the 4 years we were friends I was only allowed to go to her house once. We kept in touch for a few years after school, but as with all of my school friends we fell out of touch not long after we all finished uni.

When working at my first school I had a fantastic Chinese British friend. She was amazing! She was an art teacher and we had the best time in the staffroom. I think we just had very similar personalities and enjoyed the same stuff. It really, truly made no difference what so ever that I am white and she is Chinese. Unfortunately, the children at that school DID have a problem with her being Chinese, and they treated her appallingly!!! They were horrid to me, but to her they were horrid AND racist. We both left after a year there, she moved back to her home town, I moved to a different part of the country. We are now not much more than Facebook friends.

@StuntPond

Well there is the mixed race child in my child’s class who goes to the teacher whenever the word “black“ is mentioned (even in relation to something having the colour black eg a pirate hat) because they’ve had it drummed into them that it’s “bad“ to mention skin colour.

But that is a (presumably) young child who is confused. Are you suggesting that you're afraid that if you asked for black coffee while out with a non-white acquaintance, they would consider it a racial slur?

Of course not. But the kids are already getting the message that you cannot EVER mention skin colour. Some kids are absorbing the message that they are victims and others are learning that they are ratted in for entirely innocent comments. There is some very badly presented “diversity training” out there. It’s unrealistic. And it fuels the real racists.

"I am genuinely curious about things like hair and skin, and what it is like to wear the veil etc etc, so I’d love to ask, but I never would because there is now a sense that this could only be motivated by racism, rather than genuine interest. "

It depends on the context, doesn't it?

If you meet a woman wearing the veil and immediately ask her about it, it would probably be annoying because she's been asked it a million times and you're not seeing her, you're just seeing a point of interest. It's like she's not a person, she's just something you're interested in.

If you've been friends for a bit and she knows you genuinely like her as a person, that's totally different.

Where I live now is not very ethnically diverse so non-white women are in the minority. But I am on friendly terms with black (Nigerian heritage) women who are parents of children at DCs school, and with the two Asian families with DC in the same academic year.
One of my longest standing friends is also non-white.
It's definitely about the person to me, and not to do with skin colour. I do agree about the religious aspect though - any colour person who brings religion into every conversation would be tedious.

My eldest dc work in Dubai. They had to adjust quite quickly to how different races/cultures/nationalities from all over the world interact with each other. Dubai is a huge mixing pot of nationalities. You tend to gravitate towards people who have the same sense of humour and out look on life regardless of skin colour

Definitely culture. I have many friends in work who are Asian, who I get on with so well. But there are things I avoid talking with them about due to cultural differences so that I don’t offend them. I find i have to analyse responses and conversations in my head before speaking. But I also think that they probably are the same towards me, in that we don’t have enough in common to form strong friendships.

I find the same thing, but the opposite way round. I'm white and was probably in the 5% ethnic minority in our prep school. I always felt on the outside of parent groups, not excluded in an unpleasant way whatsoever, but just that the other parents gravitated towards each other, particularly the dads.

I agree that it's a cultural, rather than skin colour, thing. I think they felt that they had more in common which is absolutely understandable. I'm very comfortable with people from a range of backgrounds. My sister in law grew up in Pakistan, my brother is an active member of their local mosque and I enjoy hearing their perspectives.

It would be interesting to know where you live as this might have an impact. Maybe it is somewhere where people are not used to interacting with people from other backgrounds.

I am in London and I have a really varied circle of close friends who are from Asia, EU countries, English, Scottish, Canadian. Some are Muslims. Some are gay other are straight. They are all different ages.
I would say in a multicultural city like London most people mix easily and you learn to understand and relate people who are very different from you. To me the person matters, not where they are from.

I am white myself but I am a British citizen who was born in an EU country. I do sometimes encounter people who can't get over or make a big deal of my accent and origin, I simply ignore them as this is not the type of people I want to hang out with...