White women, please be honest about this

[Lightsmother]

I’m a South Asian woman and genuinely feel white women are unable to fully connect with me in the same way they are with other white women. I don’t feel a genuine solidarity or sisterhood coming from them, regardless of how hard I try or attempt to fit in with their norms.

When you meet a non-white woman, do you really see through her race?

From school to university and now parenthood, it’s a difficult experience and I am constantly considering how each meeting and interaction would go if I were white.

In answer to your playground question Lightsmother I would have a chat if I caught your eye. But being honest, as I said earlier, I probably wouldn't if you were wearing a veil. It makes me uncomfortable.

I don't see through race as such. I notice differences whether they are physical, cultural or language based. But I have never let that stop me getting to know someone and enjoying their company. I am white Australian with a British & Irish background. My husband is Swiss-Polish and my best friends are Malaysian, Greek and Australian. For me, it's not about having or doing everything the same, but about finding some common ground to connect on (eg kids the same age) and enjoying our differences. That goes for everyone I meet even if they are also white Aussie like me.

"What I’m talking about here, trying to interrogate, is do white women see non white women as other, or as just another woman in the school playground, office, soft play?"

Despite being white myself, I actually feel like the outsider in the school playground, by virtue of my 'posh' accent, vocabulary, IQ - and often more so around other white women than with mothers of different races/colour to me.

This is probably because I'm actually more likely to share outlooks on certain things that are important to me, and which transcend basic traits like nationality/education, with the latter group than the former.

There's still not a single magic bullet for friendship, though. Some people just 'click'! And others, despite being a perfect match on paper, just don't. It's one of life's mysteries.

Also I don't think coming from vastly different cultural backgrounds necessarily has to stop you from being friends with someone - one of my friends is Indian, she grew up in India in a fairly well off family who were fairly religious whereas I grew up in England with divorced parents, my mum often struggled for money and we were not religious in the slightest. However, we both had arguments with our siblings, we both had to go to family parties and interact with difficult, overbearing relatives and we both love things like reading, watching films and cooking so we do share common experiences and interests despite being very different at first glance.

@Lightsmother

JFC. A bit chippy, rude and touchy. I’m done here guys. Have fun.

The common denominator in your experience is you, OP.

I think the truth probably lies in the middle of both extremes (i.e. it's all them, or it's all you), but you do seem reluctant to entertain the possibility that this might also have something to do with you. Your posts are abrasive, and somewhat high-handed, and I wonder if you inadvertently come across like that in real life because you are expecting to be treated differently - and therefore you are.

I don't feel a closeness to other women because they are white - currently live in a very white area and feel strongly that I don't belong as the people here have very different backgrounds and outlooks to me.

I am white, I have non white friends from all over the world.

I dont find culture is an issue, and Im not worried about offending them. I also dont have difficulties pronouncing their names.

If someone is asking me advice on their marriage for example, I assume they know my culture and my opinions. So I will give them my honest answer, they dont have to take my advice. If theres specific cultural things that are relevent I will take these into account, e.g. cant leave because of religion but if they are my friend I already know their circumstances and so I dont need to be vague or worried about offending them. They could quite easily be white british and have specific things I need to take into account when giving advice.

I dont find people from other cultures particularly difficult to get on with, yes there are obviously differences but also there are many similarities. And just because someone is different doesnt mean its particularly hard to get on with them

I think white british people can be quite unwelcoming of 'foreigners', (anyone they perceive as foreign whether you are or not).

Even people on this thread talking about how they worry about pronouncing someones name so would be less inclined to speak to a non-white person? Or basically they dont listen to foreign names. I have a friend whose indian, their name is pronounced exactly as its spelt. Really easy but obviously not british and so many people pretend they cant say it. Its not hard, they just cant be bothered to listen to her when she says it.

Interesting post op. In answer to your question I don't think white women do see non white women as 'other' at all. In my experience any difficulty getting to know someone is much more to do with culture. I have had many friends from Asian backgrounds (1st generation) over the years. I feel the same as you. The friendships would go so far then get stuck at a certain level ( but thinking about it this wasn't exclusive to friendships with Asian women it equally applied to European and British friends as friendships are hard work especially when you get older). Cultural issues because of not being able to do the same things or because parents would like her doing x or husband didn't want her doing y made things trickier. Usually I felt like I had to prove I was good enough if that makes sense. I would also say it's harder to make friends the older you are and it takes me years to get to know people properly. It takes sustained effort on both sides.

Also no one is going to admit to being racist

But plenty of people are, even if its a subconcious racism. Even if they think they arent.

Im not sure you will get a true picture on a MN thread OP. You say you grew up in a home counties white grammar, so did I and as a white person I have seen and heard how my peers treat non-white or non-british people. There was a fuck ton of racism, a fuck ton of othering, and a complete lack of tolerance. Not so much against black people, because they know thats racist but asian, muslim or eastern european people in particular. Its a culture thing I guess not race - but that doesnt really make it any better.

No I have friends who are non white and literally think of them the same. The only time I feel a difference is when they do things that are in their culture but not ours. But that doesn't change how I see them.. I just mean that's when I realise we have different backgrounds. But who doesn't!

As an adult mixed race woman, I find most - but not all - white people are equally willing to make friends, especially once they see you around a few times

However, as a schoolchild in the 1960s, I experienced daily racial abuse and frequent assault, so was very socially isolated

Some of those children may have kept their aversion to non-whites in adulthood,
but I think / hope most of them would have changed their opinions once they grew up, as social norms changed

Don't get put off by the minority of racists, would be my advice

I think you either like, don't like or are not bothered, by a person's personality and interaction. Race isn't part of my equation.

I want that sparkle, connection, humour.etc

I am white and have lived and worked in many different countries and cultures.

It is tricky fitting in, to say nothing of language difficulties!

My advice is to be yourself, appear interested in others, and try and identify ways to meet up informally - at the gym, walking the dog, etc. Obs at the moment social distancing makes this more difficult

Friendships are usually made when there is give and take on both sides and there is something in common (work, children, hobbies). What acquaintances do you have who might also have a ‘friend shaped’ hole in their lives?

Be yourself, be interested and interesting.

Good luck.

I live overseas and within the expat community here, white British women are very exclusive and tend to befriend only each other. The Australians and other Europeans integrate much more socially. It’s really noticeable.

Yes, I have and have always had lots of non-white female friends. Most of them are British-born like me, and many of them have non-British-born grandparents, also like me (mine came from Ireland and their experience in London in the 50s wasn't without racial discrimination).

I wonder if some of this depends on childhood. I went to a primary school in London where I was one of relatively few white children in the class, so all of my close friends as a little girl were non-white and I didn't really learn even to 'see' colour until I was older.

Not that my childhood was without its faults. For some reason my parents were very sceptical about people who were religious, so all orthodox observers (mostly Methodists and Catholics) seemed odd and somehow marked-out. I also think that in the 80s we spoke very bluntly and often cruelly about disability, and did not learn how to interact well with children who weren't in school with us.

I have lots of friends of all different nationalities and in my eyes, your skin colour is just that. I judge you on whether you're a nice person and couldn't care less about anything else. One of my closest friends is from the Caribbean.

Race is relevant to our identities but not at all relevant to whether we would be friends.

regardless of how hard I try or attempt to fit in with their norms
Please be yourself.

I like difference in friends and associates and have often sought it out, only to find that usually it is outweighed by our similarity under the surface.

I'm white british.
My best friend at school's parents were immigrants from Bangladesh. Culturally our parents were very different and my friends mum didn't speak English. We had plenty in common though.
I find it easier to form a friendship with someone who is born in the uk or is a native English speaker. I have friends who I love who are neither of those things, but it took longer to get to know each other and develop our common ground.
I don't think it's a skin colour issue, it's a language and culture issue.

Interesting post. My closest friends are mostly white British, I'm mixed Jewish, white of course, living in an extremely diverse area. Daughters best friend is non white, her mum, Bengali Muslim, is probably my closest friend locally. Of course there's massive cultural differences but we just get on, the differences are interesting is all. My dad (bought up Russian Jew) has a Pakistani Muslim guy as his best pal, and they find it fascinating that there are so many similarities between their backgrounds and laugh about their fussy mothers.

In my last job we were very culturally diverse, interestingly most of the Asian women (from various backgrounds) tended to bond with each other, while black and white women formed mixed groups.

I am an immigrant in the country where I live and I can see it from both points of view.
It’s easy to fall into a friendship with someone with a similar background because you can talk about shared experiences like foods and customs.
Nevertheless, the majority of my close friends these days are not from the same ethnic background as me, they are from the country where we live.
However, it’s important to me that they have a similar approach to things like parenting, and cultural differences can come into play with this.
For example: I was quite good friends with an ex-pat mum from another country, of another ethnicity, but I distanced myself when she told me off a couple of times for setting boundaries for myself and my kid. Like, I would need to get home soon after the school pick up and would say: 5 more minutes play before we go home.
She told me off and said I should let them play as long as they liked in the school playground regardless of what I needed to do.
The first time I was offended but let it go, the second time it happened in a different scenario was the signal that we weren’t going to get on long term.
She treated her son like a little emperor and it caused a lot of problems in school as well as in social situations. I liked her but really disliked her kid’s behavior patterns.

It might be culture racism or classism, or your social circle? Or all of these things?
I’m an East Asian French woman and I do not feel all things being equal, that all white women are different friends to me than they to other white women. I think some women are good friends and others not as good. Do you have specific incidents where you were treated differently for no apparent reason, you know, micro aggression type incidents or comments? When things like that happen to me, I tend to think, ah this person is not as good a friend as I thought. But that happens also to me with nonwhite friends as well. It’s hard to know if the reason behind an action from a person who is racially different from you is due to unconscious bias on race or class or culture or just because your personalities conflict or all these reasons.

Most people in the UK are not racist. We find comon ground with all kinds of people. For me women who don't work full time however are a different breed. So on this point.....
"What I’m talking about here, trying to interrogate, is do white women see non white women as other, or as just another woman in the school playground, office, soft play?"

In some areas the only women not working are those who are not very well educated without professional careers so IQ may be lower or from sexist families so less likely to have anything in common or everyone at the private school date at 3pm might well be a nanny or child minder not a mother (or father) as parents work. I have for example been to a soft play area despite having 5 children and to go sounds like something worse than hell....

I tend to get on well with most people however but would tend to gravitate to those with my educational level and interests which would mean the Asian female or male doctor (I like men as much as women by the way for socialisation which itself might be an alien concept for some cultures) rather than the white or non white housewife who has never worked in a professional career. You get similar divides between professionals and the secretarial and post room staff - that doesn't mean you cannot have a nice conversation with them and a joke but you might feel it is less likely you might marry them or have a close relationship with them just because lives are so different. Skin colour has never genuinely been an issue for me including when my son was the only white boy in his class. My parents were the same - well educated but also importantly Christian - a fundamental point in the Bible is people are equal. The Catholicism of my mother and her ancestors was about love and equality and respect for all faiths and none.

@Xenia
So on this point.....
"What I’m talking about here, trying to interrogate, is do white women see non white women as other, or as just another woman in the school playground, office, soft play?"

In some areas the only women not working are those who are not very well educated without professional careers so IQ may be lower or from sexist families so less likely to have anything in common or everyone at the private school date at 3pm might well be a nanny or child minder not a mother (or father) as parents work. I have for example been to a soft play area despite having 5 children and to go sounds like something worse than hell....

What are you going on about?

Ive been an expat many times, some of the time in Asia. My two cents is that integration into a new cilture is a two way street, that requires both sides to be willing to engage. If either side goes in with the expectation that they are not wanted or won't have anything in common, it will be a self fulfilling prophecy. The locals aren't going to throw you a street party, why should they? But if you are genuine and friendly, you will meet people. It is never easy to be new, even if you are the same colour as everyone else (in my case).

You won't get on with all white women (or all humans of any shade) but there will be those that are easier to befriend. Look for thise who've spent time abroad, they tend to be more open to it.

And this ...

For me women who don't work full time however are a different breed. So on this point.....