Two worlds colliding - the perfect storm

[BlueLegume]

I have had several threads on here and found lots of support for the most part. I won’t repeat my story at this stage but I had a real moment of clarity this week about the situation I have found myself in with my elderly parents.

It dawned on me that having left my hometown and my parents 40 years ago I have forged a life elsewhere, and a busy life at that. A life I love(d). I realised, stupidly, that I assumed my parents life was as busy as mine, and fulfilling. They certainly talked the talk about how busy they were.

What has emerged over the past years of having to be more involved with them from a crisis situation is that they really did not live life to the full, no hobbies, just miserable in each others company in a house they did nothing to other than hoard crap from the middle aisle at a well known supermarket .

They retired 30 years ago and seem to have done nothing to keep active even though they had the means to. My aunts and uncles in the same area seem to have lovely social lives and are thriving in old age. Mine always looked down on their peers as silly people ‘keeping busy for the sake of it’ - but it has meant they have kept their world more open.

Mine are now in a place they do not like, father in a nursing facility mother just unable to cope with anything.

Anyway my point I suppose is that I am not truly surprised. They could never cope with anything big decisions. My mother has always thrown a strop when she has not liked a situation and in the past we tended to all just do what she wanted so she never had to learn any coping skills. So no surprise she cannot cope with this phase of life. Over many years we have tried to listen to their moans and come up with solutions but they always knew better so frankly have ended up exactly in the mess of their own creation.

I have made significant changes in my life so that old age will be more manageable. I wish we could make this something we talk about more. I do not want to put my kids through what my parents have done to me. I am healing now but they definitely broke me with unreasonable expectations.

I sympathise @BlueLegume I live with remaining parent surrounded by three generations of stuff. I sold all my furniture and my bits are in boxes in the garage as I'm not allowed to put them out. I thought I would keep my bits for when I get my life back, but the longer this goes on, the more I want to get rid of everything. I don't feel at home here, it's unsettling.

I suspect that first parent to go saw what was coming and decided to not have treatment when they got ill. My sibling feels the same way. It has coloured how I feel about them as there is some resentment there now.

One of the first things I did when we enacted the POA was update the lethal 1970's bathrooms. Of course this was totally unnecessary even though they leaked, floorboards were rotten and you couldn't even turn round in the shower cubicles. 🙄 Now, the narrative is that it was a marvellous idea they had to do the upgrade. I've also instigated a maintenance program with a view to long term sale.

I'm not sure how much longer I can do this.

@unsync so sorry this has happened. Can I ask a question? You mentioned enacting the POA. I have POA for Finance and Health and Welfare. As our mother is deemed to have capacity we cannot invoke the H and W one even though we feel we need to. If it is not too intrusive have you been able to navigate this because you EP no longer has capacity? OR did you just go ahead? I am increasingly inclined to get us all in one place and say we are invoking the H and W LPA. Apologies if that is too intrusive but I am increasingly concerned the H and W LPA is pointless in terms of helping the family.

@Waitwater please re read your posts. You specifically stated ‘You are one poster
do you honestly think you are well known enough that anyone who joins your threads knows all the backdrop?
I asked a question 🤷‍♀️’

I do not think I am well known enough. These threads are lifelines for many of us in desperate situations. You cannot just put someone in a care home as you suggested. Life doesn’t work like that.

It's really unusual to move into a care facility before you have to - they're expensive, takes up a place for someone who might need it, nursing facilities tend to be quite rigid about mealtimes, not wanting to lose independence too quickly; any number of reasons.

@BlueLegume My EP has a dementia diagnosis. They were always quite neglectful of their finances and health before they became unwell anyway. It was the other parent who took control of that, but they died 10 years ago.

Capacity is a tricky thing as it fluctuates so much and I think they mask and put on an act. So many adult children have to wait until something catastrophic happens before they can step in and take control of the situation.

It's a horrible situation to be in and it really colours how you view your own impending decrepitude. My sibling has said they will go down the Dignitas route rather than endure what EP is going through. I'm inclined to agree.

@BlueLegume good question about the H&W POA I am struggling to understand the point of it whilst the person is still deemed to have capacity. Maybe it’s just to make it easier past that point, don’t know.

@NattyKnitter116 Both partner and I are agreed we will move to a retirement village in the next 10-15 years or earlier if we feel we need to.

Do your research thoroughly before doing this, as if you are buying these can be a right pain to deal with for you and your loved ones. They're fine while you are fine, but they are not care homes or nursing homes and if you find after a few years that you need more care (or die) and so need to sell up they are often really difficult to sell with very high service charges that need to keep on being paid for until they are sold.

Tread very carefully....

@BlueLegumethank you for this post. I am in a very similar situation with my DF and this has made me feel slightly less awful for finding him such a mental and emotional burden, (there, I said the awful thing!).

Neither of my parents were ‘doers’ or very sociable people. They both retired in their late 50s and did nothing! No plans for how to spend the next 30 years, no hobbies or interests and huge indignation at anyone who picks up work or volunteers in retirement. But a definite expectation that my brother and I should be filling the void for them. (There’s a whole other issue here about emotionally distant parents who were never ‘there for us’ as children/teenagers now expecting a super-close relationship with their adult children).

My DF is now 80, widowed but in good mental and physical health but with absolutely nothing to do. He’s bored, lonely, probably depressed and puts this all on us. Any suggestions my DB and I make for hobbies and activities are ignored. What he wants is for ‘poor old dad’ to be centred in our lives and for us to be available to him 24/7. We both see him separately once a week (during which he monologues about the minutiae of his life) and phone once a week each. It’s not enough! I’m a single parent working full time in a stressful job. I really, really resent being made to feel guilty for not centring my life around someone who at best was a very distant parent and who could be living a great life on a very good pension but chooses not to.

Edited to add that I will never burden my DC like this! If I’m ever able to retire I will be keeping myself busy and taking responsibility for myself and how I choose to live my life.

Interesting thread.
I was here 5 years ago but all parents and in laws are now dead. DH is 76 and I am 67. He's older but in better health. I am fit and well but have health conditions that aren't going to improve in old age. DC are late 20s and live 30 minutes / 2 hours away.
I am acutely conscious of the need to forward plan and the obvious thing would be to move, not necessarily to downsize but to a location with shops and amenities in walking distance. DH won't hear of it because he never goes anywhere apart from the gym which presumably won't be forever. I guess we can get essentials delivered but for me it would be a huge loss to be unable to drive to my hobbies and social stuff.
I've done my best to de-clutter to the extent there are empty cupboards and lots of free space. We have plenty of room, a gardener and a cleaner. The stairs would be tricky - although we could use a room downstairs as a bedroom there's no shower downstairs.
We have financial LPA. I didn't do H&W as it was useless when my DM was dying but I am going to start it.
Other than move house what else would people suggest?

I had to share my mum's with her GP surgery before they would speak to me about her. She has capacity but is very hard of hearing and visually impaired and tends to put the phone down on people who ring her if she can't hear them and/or understand what they are saying so it's easier for me to deal with queries about prescriptions etc on her behalf.

The point is that the donor can put the H&W LPoA in place when they have capacity, then it automatically activates if/when they are found to have lost capacity. Without it, once the person has lost capacity, the process for supporting them with health and welfare becomes wildly more complex!

There's a big grey area where people can still make capacitous decisions, but those decisions aren't necessarily "sensible". That's the frustration that many of us live with, but I respect that when we're talking about people's fundamental freedom, the law will naturally lean towards the right to the individual.

In a way (and in hindsight), I think I've been very fortunate that my parents experienced health crises in their 50's. Though it made my teenage years difficult, it meant that my parents downsized earlier and then, as they recovered, rebuilt their social lives. Though those have naturally shrunk with age, they are still active and have friends, and it makes such a difference compared to my other elderly relative who has alienated many people around here and just stays at home on her own.

So many challenging situations. DF is mid 80s and doing ok generally. MiL has very recently died. To be fair to her she was very organised snd sorting her affairs out will be straightforward. The one thing I’d say about her is that although she had a pretty sensible lifestyle, the one exception was she never exercised. Never went for a walk. Never did the physio after hip ops etc, and although mentally she was largely ok up to the end, physically it was a different story. I’m (mid 50s) trying to be as active as possible. In part inspired by MIL. If you don’t use it you lose it.

sending hugs and 💐 to those that need them. X

Hello, thanks for replying and flagging this up to me.

I think we would likely rent rather than buy as it's more flexible.
As you say, they are not care facilities, so once either of us needs that we can deal with that situation more flexibly.

@NattyKnitter116 I agree with the advice to be careful. My parents moved into a normal flat, but it's also very accessible and central so easy for carers etc to access. There's no contractual restrictions on selling it, so it should be a lot easier to manage when the time comes than an over-50's block, and is just a really lovely flat too.

So another option worth considering....

I am finding this thread quite depressing. We are early 70s and have no plans to downsize yet (if at all). I accept that the situation can change at any time. We are passionate hill walkers and you often see people our age, or older, out on the Scottish hills. Last time we got off at Covent Garden (deep tube line) and the lift wasn’t working, we overtook many people in their 30s and 40s walking up the 193 steps. Yes we might not be able to do this in a few years but I am not going to start preparing for old age now and stop doing things we enjoy. We also look after our grandchildren after school and during the holidays. We can still run round with them.
We need the extra bedrooms for when our grandchildren stay.
We regularly declutter. There is a bus service with a bus stop nearby. A few people in our street are very old. They have cleaners, gardeners, stair lift and carers. There is absolutely no way our adult children will be doing our care. They have offered to organise care if we needed but will not be doing it. Lastly there is house clearance. This is probably how our house will be cleared, if we die or go into a home.
@BlueLegume I think your problem is that you need to take a huge step back from your mother. If you don’t do things for her then she will have to get carers to do these things for her. You have to let her fail.

@Changename12I don’t think downsizing is the right thing for everyone provided you’re close to public transport, maintain the property well with regular decluttering and could live downstairs if stairs get tricky then you should stay where you are.

Oh with the caveat that if you live a fair distance from your adult DCs you should not factor them into future care. In fact that should be the case even if you live close so what adult DCs provide is a bonus and they can focus on doing enjoyable things with and for you.

I wish we could make this something we talk about more. I do not want to put my kids through what my parents have done to me.

This really resonated with me.

My parents spent most of their lives running themselves ragged to help/bail out/protect other people- usually members of the extended family (frequently my siblings or aunts/uncles that we never saw unless they wanted something and were frankly unpleasant to my DP most of the time) but sometimes friends and even people they barely knew. When I was younger I thought that, although it sometimes inconvenienced me, they were truly amazingly good people. As an adult, and with the benefit of hindsight, I can see that most of the time they were enabling people who repeatedly made bad decisions, rather than actually helping in the long term. Doing this seemed to become their identity and looking back I think sometimes their intervention wasn't actually needed or requested. All of this meant that they didn't have any time/money/energy to do normal things like seeing friends who were not having a crisis, having hobbies, travel etc or spending time just doing nice things with friends/family who were not in crisis. They were always very derogatory about people who did normal, nice things ('Don't they have anything better to do?) Mum is now alone and has no hobbies or interests, has made no new friends since she was very young and doesn't want to start socialising now. Her real friends, from when she was younger have either passed away, are unwell themselves, or she has lost touch because she never had time for them and of course the people she spent her life helping are not interested now she isn't of use to them. Her expectation is that someone capable (ie me) will put their own life on hold and drop everything to look after her/deal with any crisis she has etc as she did so many times for other people. This was never discussed, but clearly assumed so absolutely no plans have been made for old age and everything that goes with that. Helping other people is so central to her identity that she still wants to continue to do this but via me. She would, I'm sure, see this as being a good person and passing the baton down to the next generation. I see it as the start of a cycle of dependence and obligation that I am determined not to pass on to my own children.
My mum insists on living in a house that is far too big for her (and expensive to heat/maintain) because she doesn't like change but also because someone might need a place to stay. Almost all of her cupboard space is filled with things she hasn't used for years but that might be needed if people came to stay/she hosted a big family gathering/someone might want to borrow. Meanwhile things she uses every day are stacked on work surfaces or shoved in the bottom of her wardrobe. She has a spare room full of things other people have left with her because they don't have room (including a set of shelves full of books belonging to an elderly neighbour who may or may not still be alive, taken in for safe keeping so he could have them back when he was ready, when his horrid daughter insisted he went in to a home). These things are all making life harder for her, but she will not even consider changing any of it. Her house is in a fairly isolated location with no public transport/local shop/amenities but she will not consider moving to a location where she could access more things for herself because she wouldn't be able to have as many bedrooms/huge drive for people to park/space to store all her stuff.
I think it would be much better if we could normalise families talking properly about plans for old age, and for people to streamline their living spaces (not just downsizing, but reducing 'stuff') before they reach the point where this is too physically and emotionally difficult.

Yes I agree with you. As I said my children have offered to arrange care if we need it but not do it. We don’t expect anything from them but I think they will probably do a few phone calls. A man in our street has his care managed by his son who lives abroad for most of the time.
We have been on a program of house improvement.

My mother never lost capacity but became very frail and couldn't deal with negotiating with carers / surgery / hospital. We found the GP surgery in particular very difficult to deal with even when they had the LPA.

DH won't hear of it

@Sofasu despite you being desperate to move?

PIL lived with a ‘cross that bridge’ mentality. Complete and utter denial of ageing. Refusal to spend any money despite having nearly £1m in the bank. Their expectations were ridiculous as they began to struggle. Particularly of SIL who had been foolish enough to live next door. We hit a new low as things progressed with SIL and BIL hauling naked FIL out the bath towards end of life. Cleaning shit off the hall carpet. They wouldn’t pay for carers. FIL died and MIL is now in care costing over £4k a month with never a word of thanks for the whole year it took four of us every weekend to clear
the house rammed with sixty years of crap. No planning. No order. Indescribable.
It’s left a very bad taste and a very poor legacy.

@DemonsandMosquitoes

This is the same old story isn’t it? You do not have to put up with it. Parents will only demand their children help if the children will do it. For various reasons, one of my siblings and I are LC with my mother and the other sibling did not want to (quite rightly) do care. My mother soon realised that nobody was going to do care for her and had carers in before moving into a nursing home. You just have to be prepared to let things fail.
You do not have to spend ages clearing out a home. When my aunt went into a home, we got house clearance in.

No advice OP, just solidarity. I am going through something similar and it’s draining.

It's fantastic that you are doing so much and getting so much from life.

I feel it is largely an attitude as much as anything, but, I would guess that you have aways been fit or at the very least have implemented a lifestyle change at some point that has led you to where you are now?

How did you cope with your own respective parent's aging process?

As you say things can change at any time but it sounds like you have considered things and are able to bring in what you need when you need and have talked about it with your kids.

I have empathy for the people posting here as i can see how easy it is to get sucked in to things, especially where there are patterns of co-dependancy, depression, long term illness and so on. It all must be even harder if you actually love your parents and they undergo a personality change as a result of age/illness.

I feel it may take more effort not to be subsumed and maintain boundaries than either giving in or walking away from it.

I am close to the latter with my family and will do it if i feel i need to as I'm not inclined to repeat generational family patterns. Having said all that, let's see where I am in another 5 years.

Hi thanks for your reply.

Actually before we discovered the retirement complex near us we were already considering downsizing with a move further in to town and getting a 3 bedroom flat (one for us and one each for hobbies - his is rail modelling and mine is crafting) with a balcony. They do still have service charges though so i dont think we will avoid that. So i guess the main thing to consider is the contractual side of things.

Ah this answers my question about how you coped.

I am probably about to have a conversation with my sister along these lines. Years ago she kept saying to my mum 'dont worry me and husband will look after you when you get old, if we have to well sell our house and yours a buy a big place where we can all live togther' - grandiose much?!
Now it has come to pass and the reality is she is ill and old, her husband is ill and old - they are probably only 10 years off needing extra help in the house themselves due to their life limiting conditions. Ah well. I am letting things bumble along for now as I cant be dealing with the fallout at this time of year but come January i am back to LC and getting a second phone!