Unreasonable mother

[Fusby]

I wondered what other people think of this? My mother is soon to be 89, she is still fairly mobile (gardens/walks/drives) but needs to rest more, is on a lot of heart medication, suffers from a debilitating bad back which is becoming more and more frequent and she is extremely deaf. She is a widow, owns her property and has no financial concerns. The problem is that she is still living in the house my siblings and I grew up in (I'm 58) and she cannot cope with it - the large garden and large house which is in a poor state of repair and now requires a complete roof replacement. She cannot hear on the phone and has been naive and employed cowboy tradesmen who knock on her door and fleece her. Despite being well off she is also very tight fisted and refuses to pay a gardener or for help in the house. As well as the dodgy roof, parts of the house are dangerous - ie steps down into the garage, garden etc. My siblings and I are all in agreement that she should move to a property more suitable for someone of her age and have pointed out that we have her welfare and safety at heart and that life is only going to get harder for her. If she moves while she is still relatively well then she can choose her property herself, which furniture to take and assuming the property is suitable for an elderly person, then she can probably stay independent for longer. She has so far refused to move and although she has emotional attachments to the house, we also believe that there is an element of snobbery involved. She refuses point blank to look at retirement complexes and says she doesn't like bungalows or flats. Everything came to a head recently when she rang us in tears, saying that water was coming through her bedroom ceiling. My husband went over and had a look at the strategically placed buckets which were no longer coping. My siblings and I have always supported our Mum but we work full time and cannot be there 24/7. Given her age and challenges, we pointed out last night that she really must move and if she remains in denial and continues to refuse, then we will leave her to it (ie we will stop enabling her by helping in the garden, house etc). She responded by saying that she will get her roof replaced on her own and does not need our assistance. Bearing in mind that she is extremely deaf, communication with the roofers and scaffolders will be almost impossible and she will misunderstand a lot. We have agreed to pass on details of a decent roofer but she will manage everything and will not involve us. She has always been obstinate, arrogant and the big "I am" and continued to say she wants to stay in the property for as long as she can. What do you think?

I think you can go one of two ways, wash your hands off her and let her get on with it. Or look at the bigger picture, take into account that she's vulnerable, elderly and frightened of change and work with her.

By working with her you could oversee the roof repairs and get a local handy person to help with other repairs. Perhaps put something non slipping on the stairs or work on getting them rebuilt, if that's the problem.

It might take some patience to get repairs done.

It's tough isn't it? The advice generally seems to be to 'let the wheels fall off' in these circumstances. It's really hard not to try fixing everything, but as she has mental capacity, all you can do is not enable her.

Mine is also fiercely independent, but frequently gets in a muddle, but would not admit it in a million years. We aim to be around to catch her when things go wrong, and it's stressful. We'd much rather she'd let us help her make more sensible decisions, because we love her despite the stubbornness.
Solidarity, sister 💐

That all sounds so very sensible, but mine would reject all those offers of support. Can't speak for OPs mum of course.

Yes we could, but that is enabling her. At the end of the day, even if the property were in good condition, she cannot cope with it herself.

What I didn't say, is that my Mum is not all negative. Yes she has the ability to be nasty and distort the truth, but she can also be kind and generous. Is she a frightened old lady? Maybe, it's difficult to know behind all the arrogance and ego.

I would help her get the roof fixed reliably, then leave her to it for a bit. Then re-introduce the idea of help.

It’s probably too late for her to move, and if you don’t want her fleeced stay away from retirement complexes!

I get what you mean about retirement complexes - new flats are a poor financial investment. Flats being resold though are a bargain. We are not so much interested in the financial investment - more the life investment - making sure she is safe, comfortable, warm, happy and has company. She disagrees but hey ho. As for the service charges, yes they are high, but a low priced property would offset these. She won't move there anyway so it's not worth thinking about.

@Fusby solidarity . No advice really just join the club of so many people in the same boat.

My FIL has finally decided to sell up at 85 to move closer to us ( he's 180 miles away moment) he's in good form still but although he's downsizing, he's upsizing area wise which means it's a challenge finding something he likes- he too won't consider retirement complexes or flats of any kind- but will look at bungalows- but wants detached, a garage, 2 big beds minimum plus 'an office' and it be in mint condition - I actually think he would enjoy a retirement complex but nope won't consider it- not even if renting and not buying.

@Crikeyalmighty good luck 🤞

If she gardens, moving into a retirement flat with no garden, or communal gardens maintained by a contractor, will feel like a big chunk of her life has gone

I’m in exactly the same position as you and I’m feeling a bit sorry for your Mum as I know how my Mum thinks about all you mention.
I’m 58, Mum is 91, a widow, with no financial concerns and lives in the house we all grew up in. It’s in poor condition and too much for her. She still does the garden although it’s quite small.
She is of the generation that didn’t spend much money on doing up their homes, indeed, they didn’t have the money and everything is now tired, falling apart and needs replacing.
She had an extremely hard upbringing as money was very tight and she’s been brought up not to ‘waste’ money. She cannot get out of this mindset, even now and it wouldn’t even enter her head to pay for help or ‘do up’ the house. She calls it living in faded glory and isn’t worried about it. It was only me who was doing the worrying and I spent many sleepless nights worrying about things but at the end of the day, does it really matter if she’s happy with it?
I would love her to move closer to me but she has been in her home over 60 years and I think it would finish her off if she had to leave it. Yes, she has practically all her life’s memories here. I put myself in her shoes and wonder how I would feel if I was told that I have to think about my old age and move somewhere more suitable now, approaching 60, how hard would that be for me to accept if my children were adamant that they know better than me?
I know Mum would hate to go into any type of retirement complex. It’s full of old people in God’s waiting room, how depressing to see who’s died this week! Mum wants to be part of a community with people of all ages. Snobbery in not wanting a flat? Mum would hate this, she loves to sit in her garden and has often said how awful it must have been for those in Covid days who couldn’t walk out into their own outside space.
My Mum will stay independent longer in her own home. Yes, there are things that need doing and we have done things if they absolutely have needed it but I try to weigh up the upheaval/disruption of doing things against how long will things last and will they outlive her.
She had water pouring through her roof, same as your Mum and she had a new roof last year. The roof was rotten and Mum accepted that money spent on a new roof wasn’t lost but would add value to the house.
Your Mum sounds frightened to be dealing with all this stuff at her time of life and I bet it was her husband who sorted all this stuff out anyway. She’s hurt that you’re pushing the moving aspect and sad about having to accept that she’s becoming a burden to you which is why she’s saying that she’ll sort things out herself.
It is difficult but I have come to terms with the fact that Mum wants to stay in her home and I believe that it is the best option for her. I know it would be the end of her if she had to move. I’m just waiting for a time when she has to accept more help but until then I muddle on, trying not to get stressed.
I hope that helps you understand how your Mum sees things, even as we age, we still think that we know best and get riled when we are told what we must do!

@BlueLegume thank you - to be honest the way I see it it's his cash- his choice- just the fact he would be closer makes things easier- I don't quite get his reasoning of needing an office etc - but hey ho if it keeps him happy - and so far he's great for his age! He's funny, intelligent, keeps himself really groomed and well dressed , likes a good meal out and does all his own meals at home, uses WhatsApp and technology well, likes a nice upmarket bar, isn't tight with cash - he's been bereaved twice too and nursed them both. In fact if anyone's got an attractive solvent mum on her own in her 70s - I've got just the guy for you .

@CatsMother66 that's one of my father in laws objections too- we live in Bath and he comes up every 6 weeks to stay as he enjoys seeing people of all ages plus the students out 'having fun' - he liked a good party in his time, loves a laugh and a few wines and says he doesn't want to live anywhere depressing for his last few years- he finds where he is depressing ( it was never really his choice - but his partners area) and since he's been on his own a few years now after she died he wants a change. He says the flat complexes would depress him for reasons you have said- even though many of them ( particularly at the expensive end) are more like a posh hotel, lots of activities and seem quite cheery - but they can't compensate for a garden and patio which he likes or having a garage to potter in- he's even said ideally he wants a garage and a workshop !!

I think it's very possible to respect the choices of our parents, and understand their fears, while still struggling with our own frustration with being expected to pick up the pieces at the drop of a hat when things go wrong.
This is where this board can be highly supportive, I feel.
The Mental Capacity Act means that people are able to make decisions that we might deem to be unwise

Unless you're very hard hearted, it's really difficult being the relative of the people making these decisions, and being constantly on edge waiting to catch them.
And catch mine I do, knowing that if only she hadn't cancelled the carers/would drink more water/would pay for gardener/ allow me to assist her with cooking etc etc she would be much safer and my anxiety levels would go down.

It's a roller coaster!

Ed to add: my mother has been taken to hospital by paramedics eight times in the last two years, so my fears aren't unfounded.

Agree with this. She likely hasn't got long left to let her stay where she wants and get the repairs done. It won't be very hard to oversee if you split it between your siblings.

You could hire someone to oversee. Many years ago, our jobs were relocated, and the new house needed a new roof. We were 200 miles away, so our surveyor supervised the work for us, did a better job than we would have done.

A lot of nice quality retirement communities also do rentals. Maybe you could persuade her to take a "temporary" rental while the roof is being fixed.

Tell her it's horrible to be in the house while these kinds of repairs are being done - that all the services will have to be disconnected for safety or some other such excuse meaning it's better for her not to be there.

That way you could move her into a suitable new place without actually "making" her move.

The house can be fixed up, which lets face it could take a while, and she could try out the retirement village lifestyle.

Yet another thread regarding selfish very elderly parents who think they know best. I had this twice (other siblings lived abroad!) and I had to put very very firm boundaries in place to ensure that I wasnt run ragged.

Old people lose their judgement on things like this. become secretive but almost always expect their children to sort things out for them doing things they way they want them done....

Some on this thread are getting mixed up with retirement complexes and care homes. The retirement places are often for people over the age of 60 and almost expensive (Mum was in a McCarthy and Stone one which was only available for people over the age of 70). She had a great time and only at the end did she need to move into a care home.

Realistically your Mum is just too old for one. My Mum rented and it was ideal for her.

If it was me and I did this a number of times I would literally lay down the law. This is what is going to happen if you want assistance. If you dont and want to resolve yourself but please dont call us saying water is coming through the ceiling. You could have just been off on holiday etc.

I know I sound harsh but honestly - its not all about THEM. They will make it like this if you let them!

@MichaelandKirk agree about them losing judgement but there is also the secretive behaviour which in my case I think our mother gets a little thrill out us finding things out because it means we end up having to stay longer to try and fix the ‘issue’. I think your point about laying down the law and boundaries is excellent. I only wish I was as resolute every time instead I get reeled back in thinking ‘oh that is easy’ then she chucks in all the barriers (none existent). For example we desperately want her to have a food delivery of the essentials each week. I organised them in lockdown and she accepted them. Now her reason for not having the reinstated is ‘ but the delivery driver will know I live on my own (Dad in nursing home) and then he might tell people and they might burgle me or attack me’. We cannot argue that one so Mrs Master of Manipulation wins the round and we have to keep driving over - none of us live particularly close and even the sibling who does it is a faffy journey from theirs to hers.

My husband has just finished decorating a very fancy schmancy retirement complex and he was impressed at first, but then realised how much money everything costs.
A couple of the wealthier people have recently moved out.

Blue - dont do it. Say you are setting up the food delivery process again and you and your siblings have too much on. Its complete nonsense about the delivery driver knowing she lives on her own but its worked hasnt it??

I found its the endless discussions about very little and often of little importance that sucks the life out of you. After a few months I just didnt engage. If you want my help I will help you but it will be done my way. If you wont accept this then YOU will have to think about how you are going to acheive what you want.

I have a question for you..

What would happen if you said you were starting the food delivery again? If it was me I would close down any rubbish reasons as to why it wont work. Unless she can go and get food herself she will find herself without any! She wont let that happen I promise -she will guilt trip you all to do it for her and she has won again! All over a food delivery.

Chimp - where are the richer people moving to if they have already sold their main home to live in a retirement complex?

@MichaelandKirk spot on.

@ChimpanzeeThatMonkeyNews where they can work well is if you have a house to sell of decent value , bank the money, rent in one of these places ( some do rents including McCarthy or platinum skys) use interest to pay rent ( which includes those huge service charges) but even though they are expensive ( often £1500 to £3200 a month) you aren't risking a huge loss in value or not being able to sell it leaving family with worry of ongoing service charges

Personally I think these places if bought should be sold with a £4k premium on top and that £4k ringfenced, that is there for service charge when the flat is no longer needed- after it's used up , the ongoing charge no longer exists until it's sold - would make them an easier prospect to buy.