MCCarthy Stone- what's your view?

[Flyhigher]

Elderly parents in law thinking of a McCarthy Stone place. What do you think?

Is it good or bad? Are they financially worth it?
Do you lose money?

At the end of the day, the happiness of the person / people buying is paramount, surely? It wouldn’t have suited one set of my grandparents, but for my grandmother on the other side, whose husband died of leukaemia relatively young, it was perfect.

These suggestions of shared ownership or housing association properties as an alternative are all well and good, but if you’ve lived a comfortable life in your own home, in an environment you like, are you really going to want to move to a housing association property in your old age? Even an over 55/65 development?

Perhaps it’s not appropriate to say out loud, but I imagine one of the things you are buying with these types of developments, when they are new, is the likelihood that you’ll have something in common with your neighbours from an ethos perspective. Not guaranteed of course, but it has to significantly lower the chances of ending up with a nightmare neighbour.

Trying makes a good point here. Next to Mum's M&S development and just a few mins walk is a housing association block for older people. Everyone avoids it if you can afford M&S. Its known as a dumping ground for the local authority to put people who really should be in a care home due to dementia or other health concerns.

The M&S development near us is 4-5 years old. A number of apartments are marked as rental ONLY. This means that Mum could not have been removed from the apartment due to say M&S wanting to sell it. It was always going to be a rental. Her assessment was robust. She had to show she had 10 years (I joke not!) of rental income because once she was in that was it.

In the end and I suspect what happens to a number of people - they either pass away there, or their needs are no longer met ie dementia and they move into a home. This is what Mum had happen.

I presume M&S can then make it a unit for sale. I didnt hear them ever doing this and the Manager said the rentals were proving very popular. The development did take people with some mild dementia but they couldnt manage say people who were wandering around late at night knocking on people's doors or becoming aggressive. The staff were only allowed in each individual unit with the permission of the owner/renter. I/Mum was asked at the beginning of the tenancy whether they would be allowed to use a key to get in should they have concerns about the resident. Staggeringly some people didnt want this and they told the staff to ring their daughters (always daughters!) if they hadnt seen the resident around.

My friend's father moved to one and loved it but sadly he was only there for a few months before he had to go into a care home. My friend had a job and a half selling it
These expensive posh places want rich people to live in them.... until those rich people get dementia and become problematic. Then they want to get shut of them as quickly as possible.

My mum feels incredibly safe, has made friends, knows she has help on tap if required.

I'm sucking up my fear as to what happens when she no longer needs it because of the above.

Osm - they are not an option for people with dementia and never have been.

To be fair, I expect that what the other residents want too. These places aren’t designed, funded, staffed or safe for those with higher care needs.

The other thing I noticed at the development is that older people often underestimate how they cope with life and arent beyond fibbing to confirm they can do things (which they cant!).

This then means that they might well pass the initial assessment and then it becomes clear that they arent as capable as they were claiming. I spotted as well that people were leaving it much too late to move into these types of places and then struggle once in situ. There were a number of people in their 90's which was great to see and the staff did as much as they could to keep those people in the complex but sadly as in my Mum's case there were just too many falls, too many calls to 111 or even 999.

I made the decision to move her into a full care home because in the end it just wasnt fair on her or the complex and she couldnt cope there. Her last hospital visit made her bed ridden and she never really recovered after this and passed away soon afterwards.

A M&S place would never have been able to manage with something like this. They were never meant to cover full time nursing care.

Locally there is a development with over 60s flats you can then buy care packages if or when you need then, that is run from the care home in the middle of the development, if you then need more support you can move into the care home where you will already know some of the carers. People in the flats can use the restaurant/hairdresser/convenience store in the main building so it is all familiar. It seems a good idea and when flats go up for sale they seem to sell quite quickly. I don't know what the monthly costs are though.

Too many disadvantages.

I wouldn't trust them not to interfere in whether you can live there too. My Mum had a friend in hospital and her warden controlled accommodation (not M and S) wouldn't let her home because in their view the support didn't cover her issues. Now, they may or may not have had a point. I think her families view was that her issues were recoverable from. But, whatever, I'd not like some randomer deciding I can't go home! I'd like that to be my own choice.

Other, non-chain suppliers of warden controlled flats exist, and usually have lower overheads and better resale

Or moving to a normal ground floor flat, which is near friends and activities they like; buying in care when it becomes necessary (including alarm pendant).

The problem with Dementia, as I am finding, is its so variable and progressive.

My Dad, on cusp of stage 4/5 vascular dementia, had a long period with no falls. Then 2 with A and E visits in 10 days. Now he's "on holiday" with us and we are chatting to him about his options.

Assisted living isn't on our radar. I cannot guarantee what help he needs day to day, its so variable, and I cannot guarantee when he will experience his next vascular incident and its effect. Its not about today, for which assisted living would be perfect, its about longevity and stability.

It is a really hard stage particularly if they don't accept what is happening. I've been through it with an aunt and I think it is probably the hardest thing I've ever dealt with. I hope you can sort out suitable support for him.

However, preferable to be in a care home of your choosing, then being unable to afford to move to one because both your capital and a good chunk of your income are tied up in a hard-to-sell flat whose service charges continue until a sale (approved by the developer who also takes small cut)

These are not the only form of sheltered and/or warden controlled housing that exist. Never believe the sales pitch that these particular flats are the only possibility. Yes, they're springing up all over the place so they might be the nearest choice - and if someone actually wants that type of community they'd be a good choice - but if the community aspects don't matter, keep looking. It's not just about down-sizing now, it's also about planning how you would fund a care home as that may well be the next step.

They are definitely not the sort of place to tie up all your capital, because they’re not an investment. You are using some of your capital to provide security and the lifestyle you want for a period, maybe the rest, of your life. You’d be bonkers to tie up all your money in one. They are not for a hard up older person. And I suspect that’s part of the attraction.

There are other players in the market, but to suggest to a relatively affluent older person who has always lived in their own home that a housing association or rented flat is a sensible move is equally bonkers.

Trying put it better than me! I saw people much too elderly buying these places and tying up capital. Renting is the way to go IMHO.

What I also found is that the M&S development knew the best care homes around which meant I saved time looking at the worst ones when it was clear that Mum needed one, Some were shocking. The NHS one near us which was largely a respite one was disgusting. Mum begged to leave and I got her out of there very quickly after a hospital visit.

No one with some money to spend is going to go into a housing association run flat. My grandmother was in one and it was horrible. She passed away very shortly after moving in but it was horrible.

I think we may not all on the same page over “relatively affluent” and “hard up”. To me, “hard up” is state pension and perhaps £5000 occupational pension, and owning a home worth about £250k. “Affluent enough for M&S” seems to be having enough money for M&S, a considerable occupational pension (at least £40k), and having another £500k in the bank to fund a care home.

There’s the hell of a gap between the two.

This x 10. It took three years to sell my mum's. Supply greatly outstrips demand as people typically don’t live in them long term. Keep in mind it is the final house purchase the buyer will make, the resale is not their problem, it's their relative's issue to deal with when they are gone. Most buy into these too late, at an advanced age when the future is uncertain. Sorry to be negative but I would never recommend.

You would need to prove a hardship case by submitting bank records.

But why? M&S dont have a contract with the person who inherits the property & so any monies owed can only be claimed from the estate of the deceased.

No you wouldnt because its not your debt. The debt is to the estate and it will sit there until the estate is finalised.

I get so frustrated on these types of threads when people are piling on to say that they or their friend was paying these service charges on flats owned by thei parents/relatives until the estate is completed. Its not their debt, no one has to pay these

People might choose to pay them because then the estate doesnt incur more costs as in interest rates that Im sure M&S would charge, thats a different matter.

It wasn't about inheritance for us. My mum needed a nursing home. The one we chose for her would only accept her if she had three years fees in cash the bank, which at the time was £249,000. We didn't have it because the money was tied up in the flat and they wouldn't accept a charge on it. We needed to sell fast.

You could argue that it was a crappy idea to try to go for that nursing home, but she was in a total hellhole at the time and we were desperate. It worked out differently and OK in the end. But having her money inaccessible for her care was terrifying.

Yes, that's why I didn't suggest that (others have mentioned them though) There are many options - I think it got a bit misleading when some posts seemed to suggest it was the chain suppliers or nothing. And other owner-occupier warden/assisted apartments, which are not part of the big chains may well provide greater flexibility for the owner/resident (plus less trying exit terms).

I think it has been excellent marketing by the chains if people are left with the impression that there aren't alternatives.

The chains can of course be an ideal solutions for those who definitely want that sort of community, and who don't mind having to use their preferred (possibly sole) suppliers for many things.

Positive reviews for McCarthyStone invariably come from children who have parked their parents in what they regard as a safe place.As a resident one quickly discovers the down side of dealing with a highly bureaucratised organisation run by apparatchiks ,who from our experience modify lease requirements to suit themselves, seldom responded positively to complaints, replying in unintelligible company jargon. Once in you're trapped as are your next kin on your demise with ongoing charges. It is a good scheme ruined in its application, the sale brochures are persuasive but tend to be about , what should be not what is.

I left a post a while ago about an apartment I and my sister inherited from an aunt in a McCarthyStone development in Lancaster (built 2017). Fifty-two apartments , twenty never sold, eleven now in re-sale, three sold last year at between 20,000 and 40,000 (original price 180,000 to 220,000. No prospective buyers because the service costs are payable after death for ever (or at least until the estate is completely empty). Reaching a point now where we will give the the keys and any remaining cash to McCarthyStone.
My sister consulted her local (Labour) MP and he wrote to McCarthyStone. Their reply he told them was unsatisfactory and is taking it up with another MP who has a similar case.
PLEASE, IF ANYONE READING THIS IS IN A SIMILAR SITUATION, WRITE TO YOUR LOCAL MP. McCARTHYSTONE ARE TRYING TO GIVE THE IMPRESSION THESE ARE ISOLATED INCIDENTS. THE SOONER THE GOVERNMENT REALIZE THIS IS THE GENERAL RULE, THE SOONER THEY TAKE ACTION. THERE IS A SIMPLE SOLUTION-A TWO-YEAR LIMIT ON SERVICE COSTS PAID POST-MORTEM WOULD FREE UP THE MARKET.

PLEASE CONTACT YOUR MP

Total racket.

i always thought the worst scandal was the massive drop in value when the property is sold. But I have also heard that they make lots of promisee about the level of service they will provide and then fail to deliver on it.

On the other hand, I think the concept of this style of living for elderly people is great. We just need a less scammy version.