DM wants a riser-chair costing £4.5k! Advice v welcome

[Valleyofthedollymix]

DM is 82 with moderate dementia. It affects her mobility more than her cognitive abilities but I don't know how much this is to do with the dementia and how much is due to her lack of exercise over many years.

She is currently burning through finite funds by living in a large house with a very expensive live-in carer through an agency. After a lifetime of being careful with money, she's spending like Liberace and it's going to run out, especially since I think she'll live a long time. Frustratingly, the extravagance encouraged by the carer, for example endless new pairs of trousers and cashmere jumpers (one week she bought six). If we query this spending, it gets turned into a black mark against us - for someone with a failing memory, DM can keep a really good tally of the ways in which we've 'denied' her.

Anyway the latest was the carer organising for a bespoke riser recliner chair company to come round to demo. DM apparently 'fell in love' with the deluxe one and has chosen the fabric etc. It costs nearly £4600. This feels like an awful lot to me but apparently, it's tailor made for her spine, size etc.

Does anyone know if this is worth it? Of course, if it's a buy once buy the best situation and it'll change her life, fair enough, we'll find the funds. But I wouldn't spend that sort of money on anything without due diligence. I feel like we're being bounced into it. I'm also unsure of the wisdom of these chairs at all because might it exacerbate my mother's immobility?

So, if anyone has any knowledge on how much you need to spend and what's worth it, I'd be vvvv grateful.

@Valleyofthedollymix a new care team with strict ground rules may well be beneficial all round. New brooms sweeping clean.

Being sneaky you could insist that the current carer follows much stricter rules than you expect the new team to follow. DM will not like this. Current carer will not like this.

You then introduce the idea of a change of care team. DM no longer likes current carer so may be happy to change. Current carer doesn't like the new rules so is happy to go.

New team comes in with slightly relaxed rules compared to most recent rules. DM is happy.

I got phoned by the actual OT for a triage and she was completely horrified by the cost! She concurred with people on here in saying that it would be for someone who was completely immobile rather than someone who can still go up and down stairs.

The whole house will have a proper assessment - this will include all the existing grab rails, shower seat, her bed, chair etc as it was all done for my father. Should have been done when he died but, well, obviously we were distracted. Unfortunately the wait time is a lot longer than the 2 weeks I promised so somehow I've got to manage this because I really think it would be mad to buy anything until this happens.

I think I'm painting the carer as far more Machiavellian than she is. I honestly don't think she's a bad person at all and in many ways I'm very grateful. But I think the relationship has run its course and it gives me a good reason to change agencies.

Again so many thanks to all.

I feel for you OP, I've been in a very similar situation myself unfortunately. We had to restrict my father's spending completely when his Alzheimer's got to the stage when he was just losing thousands every week, we never found out where it went. Maybe it's time for that with your DM? I'd switch carers and explain to the new carers that your DM does not have capacity to make decisions, so any financial decisions will be made by you. Your DM will hate it yes, but with dementia they'll always hate you for something, and you need to safeguard your DM. We had to take action, and it's fortunate we were able to, as in his last few years of life he needed all the money he had to pay for nursing home fees. What I would say though, is that unfortunately I think dementia care in the community is absolutely dire. Every professional we had contact with downplayed the severity of my father's Alzheimer's, until he was sectioned. As soon as he was sectioned, he was suddenly severely cognitively impaired, with Deprivation of Liberty immediate and permanent. He didn't change overnight, he'd clearly been struggling massively at home, but he got no support. He was discharged by the memory nurses! I wouldn't expect a very accurate assessment from any community services I'm afraid. Everything was 100 times easier when he moved into a care home.

I’m glad you’ve got the OT assessment arranged. social care will also assess and make recommendations even if you are self funding - it sounds unlikely they would recommend live in care but you could consider funding whatever they do recommend as it would follow s more enabling approach - and it sounds like you DM is quite willingly becoming more dependant.

Presumably the carer doesn’t know how much money she has? Can you have a conversation saying your mum thinks she has more than she really has and that you are concerned about not being able to keep her on for as long as you’d like to as the money is running out fast. Could she discourage mum from spending unnecessarily as you’d hate to run out of money and not be able to afford her as she’s so great.

When my DM came home after a stroke we asked the lovely occupational therapist who came out about getting a recliner. Her advice was that it was the quickest way to kill DM off because she needed to be using her muscles not Letting everything atrophy and becoming more dependent.

Sounds like a really good OT and an excellent outcome for your day OP, you could just take the pressure off yourself a bit and tell your DM that the OT insists no chair until the assessment is completed because she has a much BETTER chair in mind - kick that problem into the long grass for a bit!

The point about the carer is not necessarily that she is purposefully at it but that she certainly isn't doing her professional best for your DM whatever the reasons.

I think the carer knows exactly how much money she has, with all this requiring smoked salmon malarky.

I'd be very surprised if the carer isn't doing a deal with this chair company salesman and taking some of his commission as a referral fee. Few hundred quid x however many patients she has, then x the different product/selling companies she can get out to people with dementia.

Sickening.

Your mum may be able to afford it, but I bet there are others out there who can't.

Sorry haven't RTTT but your situation is very similar to the one we were in. I felt I was drowning under purchases!
But a care company should insist on an OT assessment as much to protect themselves as to help you. So get that done, and see what they think about the chair. You might even get given one if it's needed. Alternatively (as I sadly know) there's a quick turnaround on the second hand market because purchases of said chairs may not last long.

Good luck. The whole thing is brutal x

This sounds really inappropriate. Can you raise it with the agency?

On a dog walk this afternoon I met up with a friend who is currently trying to work out how to care for her elderly mother who is increasingly confused. I mentioned this thread and the responses from the lawyer/ social worker/ human rights folk who talk about it being a breach of human rights to make decisions on behalf of people who trusted you enough, when they were well, to ask you to be their attorney. I told her about the post here from someone who says that if on a good day, at the right time of day, someone might have the capacity to make their own informed decisions then there is a legal obligation to keep consulting them — and she just laughed and then got tearful.

She asked how anyone who hasn't known the person for years could have any idea whether they were cogent and had capacity at any moment. She pointed out that until quite recently her mother's GP had assured her on various occasions that her mother was showed no sign of memory loss or intellectual impairment. He didn't seem to believe anything she reported about her mother's behaviour. Then one day when she took her mum in for an appointment the GP asked whether her mum had enjoyed her week in Broadstairs with Bernard. My friend pointed out that her mum hadn't been on holiday to Broadstairs for 50 years, and that Bernard died in 2012. At that point the GP conceded that maybe it was time to do some assessments. But until that moment, apparently, she had been fully compos mentis.

I think now if anyone asked me whether they should accept a request to be an attorney I'd say no. I had 18 years looking after my aunt and even though I had it relatively easy, I had responsibilities for things like selling her home (200+ miles away), visiting her every few weeks, managing her money and dealing with all the various complications that arose. I was allowed to charge my expenses and that was it. I gave hundreds, possibly thousands, of hours of work — because it was work — for free. Most of the other other attorneys I've met have been women, because it's mostly the women in the family who are expected to do the caring.

@Valleyofthedollymix Re. the credit cards and how you need to sort something out pronto.

No one outside of the immediate family should have access to your Mum's DOB, credit cards, address, security number on the back of the card, etc.

It's no good assuming the carer is honest. She probably is, but it's negligence on your part to allow this access to your Mum's money.

My Mum, thankfully, doesn't have dementia. She's much older than your Mum and lives alone.

This is how we and my sibling manage her money.

My sibling takes cash out of my Mum's bank account each week, gives it to my Mum, and she uses it to pay for her gardener, or neighbours bringing her shopping. This gives her some control.

Anything else, like purchases for clothes, household items like a freezer she needed, I buy for her using my credit card.

(My Mum can use her iPad to look for clothes, etc, but we don't trust her to navigate online sales at her age.)

My Mum transfers a certain amount of money into mine and my siblings' bank accounts a couple of times a year.
We use that to pay whatever she's bought on our credit cards. I do online bank transfers so I have the statements and she can see what's been spent- so it's all very transparent.

Why are you taking the quote out of context ? You even quoted the first half of her sentence.

She meant "i can afford to fly first class but i choose not to as i would rather give the money to charity or spend it on my children."

the inheritance was not referred to in this sentence. It amazes me how some poster criticise others when they themselves have such limited reading and comprehension abilities that they can't understand even a very simple sentence.

The live in carer is a worry. I think they are stepping over the line by asking you to buy a new TV etc. Buying 6 jumpers in one week? The carer is not encouraging your mum to be responsible with her money. I would seriously think about changing the carer or you may find other things that are not above board. Maybe ask to speak to a manager and ask if certain behaviour is normal. Also keep a watch on your mother's bank account.

One of my big regrets is that my mother did not spend like Liberace in her final few years. I would have loved for there to have been no inheritance with her spending it on a round the world cruise (with carer or nurse in tow), cashmere throws and smoked salmon and Waitrose fruit. I tried my best to get her to throw caution to the winds.

< well, ot necessarily those particular items - but you get the drift >

I own and run a large domiciliary care company, including live in carers. I would be extremely concerned about a carer having this much influence over a customer. I suggest you speak to the registered care manager of the company and explain the situation. In this case I would change the carer to someone with more professional boundaries. I understand that it is usually better for the customer to retain the same carer, especially with dementia involved, but this is highly inappropriate behaviour on the carers part! Please speak to the office asap.

I used to own and run a very little care agency and I see it exactly the same as you. I would have taken immediate action upon learning something like this.

We got one for about 400 for FIL that was perfectly adequate. Sadly he had to go into a home shortly afterwards, and we had to practically give it away as no one would pay anything decent for it. So give gumtree/ebay a good look at.

I think that post was from me. And it was based on personal experience and legal advice. And if you have a look at the mental health act underpinning the basis for lasting power of attorney it clearly states that attorneys must make every effort to involve the donor in decisions made on their behalf. And if that means delaying a decision until a time when the attorney knows they will be better able to understand, then that’s what you do.

It’s clear from this thread that a lot of posters have no idea what constitutes capacity, and the legal issues surrounding it. A person may have capacity one day and not the next - for my own mum this is definitely the case. She has advanced vascular dementia, but she has periods of lucidity, during which she is capable of expressing opinions and contributing towards any decisions. Just because your friends’ mum can’t recall certain events, doesn’t mean she has no opinion about what happens to her.

If you’re not prepared to take the role of attorney seriously and familiarise yourself with the mental health act and what it requires of attorneys, then you really shouldn’t take on the responsibility. It’s not just a case of doing what you think is best, it’s all about considering what the donor wants - and if there’s even the slightest chance that they can contribute to decisions concerning them, in my opinion they should be given the opportunity to do so, however small that contribution may be. That’s what it’s about.

All well and good, but what if she had needed to go into full time care ? Social Services would likely have looked on this type of spending as deprivation of assets to avoid care fees and would have treated her as though she still had those assets.

It would be cheaper for your mum to go into a nursing home!
As for the chair, remember that there’s a possibility that your mum may become incontenent, so make sure it’s an easy to clean waterproof material

I think some do.

My younger son has been assessed as not having capacity in certain areas (finances being one) . There's a lot of rules around how you act

She would be going into private so it’s not relevant.

How long has this carer been in place? She should be rotating every few weeks with another staff member. There's such a thing as a pairing breaking down because both parties get too comfortable and take liberties.

At a more "human" level, if a carer leaves (health problems/ better job/ wins the lottery) the client isn't suddenly presented with someone she has never seen before in his / her life - confusing and upsetting them even further.