What steps do we 50 somethings need to take to avoid the situation many of us find ourselves with our elderly relatives?

[Mxflamingnoravera]

Many of on here vow that we will never put our children through what we are going through with our oldies. I'm one of them, but, unsure what I need to do (apart from set up LPA and a will). What are your suggestions for steps we can take?

It might be good to set up a checklist for different stages of our adult lives, depending on how old our children are. My son is 27 and has agreed to do LPA.

@daysofpearlyspencer

Don't understimate how much room you need in old age. If there are two of you there could be two walking frames for outside and two for inside. Disability aids take up room and little bungalows get crowded very quickly.

Have a wet room that can accomodste both yourself and a carer plus walking frame or wheelchair. If you stay in a house make sure it has straight stairs or a stairlift becomes even more expensive and they are very expensive!

Get utilities and bank accounts on line, they could be remotely managed by your family. Discuss power of atterny early on and make sure your family know which solicitor has the will.

Funeral bill will appear before the will is sorted, my mum put money into an account that we joinly accessed which meant i could sort the funeral and flat clearance etc without using my own money. Funerals are expensive. Decide what you want for a funeral and where your ashes are going or your family could be distressed wondering if they are doing the right thing.

My mum left a list and contact numbers of everyone she wanted to be told of her death plus hymns for the funeral and even which vicar she preferred! Made it so much less stressful

Don't leave any surprises in the will, my DF left everything to a wife we didn't know he had who was my age, but that could be a whole other thread....

Interestingly, I live in Spain and most people here have a funeral policy/death insurance. I have one that covers me and my children. I pay about 6€ a month and it covers funeral expenses and related costs. It also means when I die, my family just have to call one number and the company deal with absolutely everything, from death certificates to funeral to placing an obituary if I want.

@bonbonours

We have our house as tenants in common rather than joint tenants and wills have a clause saying the other gets to keep the house until death. which is supposed to mean they can only take into account half the value of the house for care costs purposes.

Pointless if you both need care.

I've gone looking for information about the 'bungalow legs' thing because my mother goes on about this and how awful it was that we encouraged her to move to a retirement flat without stairs. The news reports were based on a 2018 study (Tomioka et al).

TBH there were two age groups in the study - 65-75 and 'over 75'. The benefit of stairs was seen particularly in women of the younger age group without disabilities. Decline of all sorts was strongly associated with being older. My mother moved at 83 and already had a highly dodgy hip at that point, which was one of the reasons we were keen for her to move. At 65 she was still working 4 days a week, at the gym, exhausting us all etc. It's very easy to extrapolate results 'for older adults' and not realise it means people in an age group we barely regard as old any more. The very old (85plus) are in a slightly different category.

I do think it argues against moving in a preparatory way when you're still absolutely fine, unless you are diagnosed with a progressive disease for example - if you know you have e.g. MS or MND, that's a different picture. A healthy 70 year old should think about how to manage if stairs become impossible but shouldn't necessarily eliminate them from their lives.

From the other side if it’s your parents Don’t be scares to say “fuck off “ to both them and the SW 😂

I’m sort of going through this with my father
The only way to get him to get the help that he actually needs as opposed to what he wants is to basically do nothing refuse to get involved .
Refuse to be on call for lifeline pendants so you not the one woken at 3am 3 times a week
Refuse to be someone who will liase with social workers and carers so you don’t have to take endless phone calls
I only deal with the SW by email so that I have complete record of what’s being said and done . She seems to be ok as she know how I feel about my dads stupidity 😂but she has to go with his wishes - but I don’t and I won’t .

I see it as they say my father has capacity so therefore he has the capacity to know that I’m not getting involved in his wrong decisions
I’ve let the SW deal with the care and repair team to fix stuff at my dads house rather than having to take time or to do it myself
I will still visit him I don’t mind doing his shopping and some cleaning but that’s it
I live close 10 min walk so it’s not hard for me to visit but I’m not being the first point of contact

Do a legally binding advanced decision refusing resuscitation after a certain age or if you have certain diagnoses as well as making LPAs and save your children having to have those conversations with Drs.

Make sure they are well aware of your wishes about your medical care, finances and housing and ideally write them down so that they don't have the burden of having to guess what you may have wanted.

I have to have these conversations every day as an elderly care Dr and most people say 'we never discussed it' and are very distressed (case law requires we consult relatives on resus decisions wherever practicable) The people who are not distressed are the ones whose family 'gave them permission' to make the hard choice. They feel much better as they can say 'here is his advanced decision' or at least 'we talked about it and he was always very clear'

To be legally bringing it has to be in writing signed and witnessed and you should
make your GP and relatives aware of it and give them copies. My mum had one after her cancer diagnosis and I am soon going to talk to my dad about doing his too although he is well now. I know he does not want resus if he gets dementia like his parents did.

My parents will was written so that when my mum passed away her half went to my sister and my son so 50 percent is worth about £400k my father can stay in the house till he dies
If he goes into care the lA can only touch my fathers half not the half that belongs to my sister and my son
If the house is sold for care my sister and son get their half and my fathers half is used for his care
The SW confirmed with me the other day that this is the case as it was all done before my mum died and is on the land registry

Also as the child do not agree to take LPA unless you understand what your responsibilities will be and are happy to discharge them.

We are now getting more people with H&W LPA and some of them don't actually want it. They don't want to be the decision maker and would prefer hospital staff to be the ones to decide to eg put someone in a care home. However if you have LPA it is legally your decision and not the staff so if you can't face being the one to decide stuff like that then please do not sign up for it.
If you do and later regret it then you can resign it too.

Please don't give you house to your children. We had a client ( Citizens Advice) who did this. Her sons then sold the house from under her. What could she do? Absolutely nothing.

All practical advise here is good, but the real issue is mental capacity.

We all think, we'll keep on going, thinking the way we do in our 50-60-70ies, but our outlook and look on what is important and sustainable for keeping up an everyday life change. Both due to physical and mental capacity.

Ad to that mix long term illness that change a person and dementia etc. the 60 years old who once swore they would never rely on dc, cannot see they are doing so, they feel they get on with things, blocking out that they might actually only sit on a chair all day without assistance, but it will be seen by them as doing it themselves. The lifeadmin., the food preparation/delivery, the trying to get them to eat, the non-recognizion of incontinence, it will be blocked out by many and if not, it's too much to deal with.

Sadly this is how many many people 'evolve' in old age, and I think that's the real problem. I've no solutions, only get cleaners, gardeners and carers before capacity is failing, because then the old person won't accept 'strangers' helping.

There is a thread 'cockroach cafe' (hope it's ok i refer to it) where all this unrecognized loss of ability is very obvious, I'm sure those elderlies never ever thought it would be them. I can recommend you take a read.

Oh yes another cautionary tale

Usually it's a good idea to make your LPAs joint and several ie more than one person but each able to act alone so as to have back up

However if you already know that your children don't get on and fight like cats and dogs then do not appoint them jointly.

Please please in that instance choose one person who you think will do it best and save the Dr from having to adjudicate at screaming matches at the best interests meeting.

Don't hoard and that includes money.
Don't worry so much about what you are leaving for the dc that it impacts your life plans. For example if you want to remarry and share combine your finances then do it. As long as you have a will of course.
One of our dc is already almost as well off as we are because of a huge inheritance.
On the other hand don't get to mid 80s with an enormous amount of savings that could have benefitted everyone earlier on.
Don't hide your will. You can also have add ons if you don't want to include someone or have special wishes.
Leave clear instructions.
Downsize to a good location regarding managing your accommodation and somewhere you are able to live in independently as long as possible near shops and bus routes.
Ours is also tenants in common with life time interest (or on marriage to another).

Recognise that paid for care is substantially better than state-funded care and be prepared to sell your home to pay for it.

This has not been our experience with both parents. The local (to them) care home ran privately paid for beds alongside local authority paid for bed, the care etc was really very good and identical across both. Private cost in the region of £52k per annum

Some friends currently have parents in private only nursing homes. Granted the grounds are much more extensive and include a golf course and wine with meals. Sadly by the time people need nursing homes they can't actually take advantage of those facilities which are mostly to make the relatives feel better.

The one thing that paying privately does make easier is that there is no waiting around for SS assessment of needs and being allocated to a care home. We rang the preferred home on a Thursday, they had a room free and DF moved in on the Saturday.

Great posts @giantrooster @finallyhere

My MIL's council-run care home is SO much better than the BUPA one my mum was in. The carers have all been there for ages and are lovely, there's a great atmosphere, and being council, all the checks and balances are very much in evidence. Despite being a dementia home, it's sparking and fresh.
The BUPA one had a high turnover of staff, who barely acknowledged us and seemed to treat my Mum as an inconvenience. And the place was dingy and a bit urine smelly.

My attitude to council vs private care has completely changed.

Totally agree that it is a myth that private is better. Many private and council paid for beds are in the same home. But even in ones fully private, the benefits are normally better decor, nice gardens, etc. Although this is a nice to have, it is the staff that make a big difference. And plenty of expensive private homes have a high turnover of staff and subsequently not great care.

Also agree that those who do this all too early do seem to age mentally. I am in my fifties and have friends with children at school and working long days. I have two friends who have both retired and are preparing for old age by decluttering and considering bungalows. They both seem much older than they are in terms of attitude.

Also interesting what someone said about keeping healthy. Yes if you need care for 20 plus years, life will be more difficult. But I think the people who get the best care at the end of their life are people who die young. I have had people close to me die in their fifties and early sixties. They got loads of help as peers were still healthy and able to give lots of help. If you live till a very old age, there are less people around to help and there may be nobody. Not that I am advocating dying young, but I do not think there are any simple solutions.

Put your house in your children's names so it won't be sold to pay for your care. - this is a loophole I suspect the Government will very quickly close. LAs are alert to deprivation of assets and will look a long way back. If they decide it was deprivation of assets, they will carry out the financial assessment as if the home were still in your parents' name.

I think the main thing is being open to needing help when the time comes. And not expecting your adult DC to care for you as you don't want strangers in the house. The fact you are thinking about it already shows you will not be making this hard on your DC unnecessarily.

Obviously the practical stuff like paperwork is important. And making sure that those who need to know can find it.

Unless you then pay them a market rent, on which they pay tax, this is illegal. Putting your house in your children's names is not illegal, how could it be? However, giving it to your children when your need for care is foreseeable is "deprivation of assets" and the LA will carry out any financial assessment as if the house were still in your possession. And if you don't pay market rent to live in it for tax purposes it is a "gift with reservation of benefit" so it will be regarded as part of your estate when you die, and inheritance tax may be liable on it.

I agreed to be an executor for a will on the basis that the relative told me where they kept the will.
My DP has a drawer with a file in it saying VIP documents. Everything is kept there such as wills, marriage certificates and passports.
Make a will and tell someone what you want for your funeral. Even write it down. It is tough when grieving to organise a funeral when you have no idea what the person wanted.
I would say the most important thing is to enjoy your life where you can. Don't put off doing anything you really want to. And don't put off telling people close to you how much they mean to you.

@MereDintofPandiculation I thought it was clear that I was talking about deprivation of assets. If you try and give away a house you are still living in and not paying a market rent, it is seen as deprivation of assets. Councils tend to pursue this quite vigorously.

@PortMerrionCentre

Problem with downsizing: DH & I can leave a £million house to our children tax free. If we downsize we lose the benefit of that exemption for leaving your home to your children, and IHT is payable on anything over £650000.

Yes, this is a bit of a catch 22, same if you sell for care home fees and then die fairly soon after - the tax bill goes up, yet you've done all the right things to avoid the tax payer picking up your care bill 🙄

There simply isn’t a bottomless pit of money and the state shouldn’t be funding everyone’s care while people inherit assets. By the same token you could say that the state shouldn't be funding healthcare while people inherit assets.

With most things we spread the risk via insurance or via tax. Why shouldn't elder care be the same?

And if you're moving into care you're simply swapping one home to another. You don't need the former. You shouldn't suddenly have all your electricity, heating, lighting, food, council tax, decor, cleaning etc etc paid for by others indefinitely. Most people don't pay £50,000 a year for living costs. I've no problem with the idea of paying a similar amount to my current living costs. Ive no problem with taking out an affordable insurance, or paying extra tax for something I may never need to use, provided everyone else of similar means in my age groups is also paying.

And if you're a self funder in a home that takes LA funded people, they're not just asking you to pay your own costs, they're also demanding that you should make a contribution to someone else's costs.

If you were to rent a single room in a house with all meals included you would not be paying massive bills for this. The bulk of the cost is the cost of carers.

The way we’re going we probably will end up funding some of our health care costs in the future imo. 😞

Re the not going into a bungalow because of bungalow legs - I think a bungalow is better because I’ve had a few incidents lately of parents/relatives falling on the stairs - a few involved hospital visits or stays. So they worry me a bit. I guess the ideal is a safe environment with no stairs, but encouraging the elderly to still take walks and keep as fit as they can.