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Elderly parents

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Original poster

Aunt has to go to nursing home - she thinks she's coming home

113 replies

CrystalFlyer · 02/05/2021 19:41

My Aunt has been living with my mother, her sister-in-law. It's my mums house. My mum is 79 & my Aunt 89.

Thursday my aunt had a fall (due to her not using her walking stick) and has broken her wrist and has a bleed on her brain. So she's in hospital currently .

My mum has decided she can't come home. She can't look after her and she nursed her mother and my Dad as they died and she's not doing it again at her age. Which is fair enough.

My Aunt doesn't know yet. I obviously need to have conversations with the hospital as to what we do next but I'm just not sure how to tell my aunt she's not coming home. Someone in the hospital will have to do it as visitors aren't allowed and she's very hard of hearing and can't hear me on the phone.

Anyone have any experience with this? I think she would actually do well in a home and if possible we'd bring her home for the day occasionally.

I'm worried about the capacity issue as well. She's mentally ok so she would say she wants to go home but my mum is refusing to let her back in the house.

OP posts:

thesandwich · 11/05/2021 17:25

Oh crystal that's really tough.
Wonder if @hatgirl or @emmagrundyforpm ( I think) who are v knowledgeable can advise?
I think phrases like carer breakdown are useful - saying your dm cannot care for her although they may offer a care package.....
good luck. Can you demonstrate she has no stake in the house?

Original poster

CrystalFlyer · 11/05/2021 17:45

How would I demonstrate she has no stake in the house? I could print off the land register folio which would show its in mums name but that costs €40 so would prefer not to.

I’ve got a call in to mums G.P to see if he would write a letter stating how mum isn’t physically able to look after my Aunt.

The discharge coordinator already tried to suggest home help but I pointed out that personal care for my Aunt isn’t the issue. It’s when she needs help back from the bathroom in the middle of the night, or falls and is covered in blood.

OP posts:

romdowa · 11/05/2021 17:55

@CrystalFlyer

Well that was going way too smoothly! Had a call from a different discharge coordinator today that basically my Aunt was saying she wanted to go home so they couldn't force her to go into a nursing home. Despite me explaining that she didn't have a HOME to go to and that she doesn't know that my mother is refusing to have her back. So of course if asked the question "Do you want to go home or into a nursing home" she's saying she wants to go home!

I asked several time to be allowed come in and speak to my Aunt but now the discharge coordinator seems to be acting like I'm going to bully my Aunt into saying she wants to go to a nursing home so instead tomorrow there's going to be a multi-disciplinary meeting with her Doctor, Physio, OT, the discharge coordinator, my Aunt and me and I'm taking my husband with me. I asked if I could speak with my Aunt first and she said I can speak to her after the meeting.

Anyone any experience with this kind of meeting?

Typical hse they will try and bully you into taking her home. Just stand firm and say that there is nobody to care for her at all. That nobody can do it and that they have a duty of care towards her and they would be failing in that duty of care to allow her to be discharged when there is nobody to care for her and she is unable to care for herself

cptartapp · 11/05/2021 18:04

Just stand firm. Don't negotiate, don't explain. They absolutely cannot make you take her back. Threaten to lock up and go out if your mum has to.
It's far easier for them to send her 'home' but that's not your problem.

Original poster

CrystalFlyer · 11/05/2021 18:05

romdowa I was talking to a friend who's been through this and she basically said that I need to take my husband with me for backup! She wished she'd taken her husband.

That's a good like about failing in their duty of care to her.

It's like the discharge person was just not hearing me about the fact she doesn't have a home to go to!

I'm usually not great about standing up for myself but I'm not standing up for myself, I'm standing up for my mum so that makes it easier.

OP posts:

Original poster

CrystalFlyer · 11/05/2021 18:07

The discharge person also kept saying that they couldn't force her into a nursing home and when I kept saying she couldn't go home she said "other accommodation" would have to be considered?! She's an 89 year old woman, she's not going to consent to "other accommodation" - whatever that is!!!!

OP posts:

PermanentTemporary · 11/05/2021 18:11

I am absolutely not an expert but I wonder if a short letter in writing from your mum stating that your aunt can no longer live at [the address] might help concentrate minds?

romdowa · 11/05/2021 18:12

@CrystalFlyer

romdowa I was talking to a friend who's been through this and she basically said that I need to take my husband with me for backup! She wished she'd taken her husband.

That's a good like about failing in their duty of care to her.

It's like the discharge person was just not hearing me about the fact she doesn't have a home to go to!

I'm usually not great about standing up for myself but I'm not standing up for myself, I'm standing up for my mum so that makes it easier.

I've been through the same when my father wasn't well enough to come home years ago. They don't care where they go as long as they get the bed free. Your friend is probably right and get your husband to do all the talking , they will promise home help and it won't materialise. Just keep repeating she has no home and nobody can take her. Its their responsibility to discharge her to somewhere safe and it's easier for them for you to resume that responsibility.

cptartapp · 11/05/2021 18:20

The duty of care to a vulnerable adult is theirs. Remind them of that.
It might be a headache to sort but that's their and social services issue and not yours. If feeling really strong you can threaten to bring her right back and leave her in A&E if they send her home. It does happen! More than you might imagine.
Any transfer to other accomodation etc can be blamed to your aunt on the doctor.

Original poster

CrystalFlyer · 11/05/2021 18:30

I just called my mum to let her know what was happening and she sounded so panicked at the fact that the hospital could even consider having her come ‘home’.

OP posts:

thesandwich · 11/05/2021 22:28

Sorry your mum is upset.
Great advice from others- duty of care etc good phrases.
Good luck tomorrow.
Repeat repeat.

Minthambug · 11/05/2021 22:46

If she is self funding then she can go to whatever accomodation she choices (if she has capacity). It would be unusual for the hospital to agree to her staying in an acute medical bed while she chooses if it takes a while

The difficulty comes if she needs funding by social services. If so it will be up to their assesment what level of care she needs, if they feel she would manage with a care package then they may explore sheltered accomodation, or even independent living with a care package. Just because you can't have her home doesnt automatically mean she will fit the criteria for residential care unfortunately. Often there is pressure to try things like a home care package first, especially if the person is asking for it, in order to prove it doesnt work. Social services funding tends to work on escalations so it can be hard if you are attempting to get funding for a care home without trying lower steps first

PermanentTemporary · 11/05/2021 22:48

I would ask if a care diary has been done, ie a realistic record of the care required on the ward. But hold fast that she can no longer live at your mother's house.

Original poster

CrystalFlyer · 12/05/2021 07:42

She’s not self-funding. There aren’t that many other options in Ireland - don’t think we have sheltered accommodation and she wouldn’t live on her own.

I just think none of this is being explained properly to my Aunt. She is stubborn but the discharge coordinator just kept saying that she wants to go home. No one seems to be telling my Aunt that going home isn’t an option so what would she like to do instead.

OP posts:

Okbutnotgreat · 12/05/2021 08:03

Has her capacity been assessed? She may have the capacity to decide to go home but not to comprehend the consequences of that decision and in the case of DM an assessment of limited capacity was decided and she had to go into a home to get the necessary care.

cptartapp · 12/05/2021 08:16

Just keep refusing to have her back.
If she has no claim on your DM's house she will otherwise be trespassing. Just reiterate you will lock up and refuse her entry.
They will absolutely hate you for it and try all the tricks in the book but they're paid to sort it out.
What your aunt wants is irrelevant tbh if your DM has made up her mind.
This is the tricky bit. Think long term.

Original poster

CrystalFlyer · 12/05/2021 08:26

Her capacity was assessed as having capacity. However I do believe she might not have the capacity to understand that as she can’t go home something else will have to happen.

OP posts:

Seafog · 12/05/2021 08:37

Has anyone told her yet she can't go back to your mums?
Can you phone her and just say it? Shout it of needed?

UCOinanOCG · 12/05/2021 08:44

At the meeting today you have to keep being clear that she has no home to go to and they need to sort something out for her. How long has she been staying with your DM? Has she been contributing financially?

Original poster

CrystalFlyer · 12/05/2021 09:03

seafog I just don’t know. IF they have explained it to her then she doesn’t understand because I’m being told she wants to go home. I’ve tried calling before but even with shouting she just can’t hear me.

She’s been with mom a few years now. She pays for some food shopping and maybe some coal but nothing else.

OP posts:

thesandwich · 12/05/2021 09:08

Good luck today.
Have a stock of phrases and repeat repeat repeat.
It is not her home
She cannot return
You have a duty of care to find her somewhere to live.

FedUpAtHomeTroels · 12/05/2021 09:19

Change your wording. Don't keep saying she can't go home. It isn't her home. Keep repeating she can't go back to my mothers house. My mother will no longer allow her to live there.
Remind them she lived with other family till they died, then moved in on your mother.
Every time they say that they can put services in place. Say no she cannot move into your mothers house, not now, not for a while, not at all.
The Dischage liason nurse will get it if you keep to your script.

Original poster

CrystalFlyer · 12/05/2021 09:24

fedupathome I just said that about the wording to my husband (before I read your post!)

Did I mention that I’m waiting on a call from the GP? I’m hoping he’ll do me a letter stating that mum is not physically or mentally capable of taking care of Peggy any more. He’s done it before apparently.

OP posts:

Viviennemary · 12/05/2021 09:29

I think your mum is right in saying she can't manage to look after your aunt. But its not up to you to decide whether or not she goes into a home. You cant just go around making decisions and having property valued without POA.

Original poster

CrystalFlyer · 12/05/2021 09:33

viviennemary so what do you suggest I do??

OP posts:

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