My dad has sexually harassed his cleaner

[TubbyMcFatfuck]

Hi, have been lurking here for a while but this is my first post on this board. I have an issue with my 75 yr old dad and could use some perspective and advice. Sorry if this is long

My mum died 6yrs ago and shortly after my dad had a stroke. He suffered physical and mental impairment. He recovered reasonably well but hasn’t regained all of his physical or mental function. As a result of his ill health he can no longer work having previously been a workaholic. He lost his wife, his health, his work and raison d’etre within the space of a few months. His personality has changed to a large extent and sometimes it’s very hard to recognise the person he is now as my previously kind, loving and doting dad.

His health has not been great over the past 6 years. He is prone to self neglect, is depressed has poor mobility and struggles to cope with day to day tasks. Lockdown has not helped and after a 6 week hospital stay last year, he now has carers going in twice a day as well as district nurses and a physio. We also got him a cleaner as the house was getting in a state.

Today the owner of the cleaning company contacted me and told me that my dad has been what amounts to sexually harassing his cleaner for weeks. Making comments about her taking off her top, telling her he’ll get in the shower with her and wash her as well as cuddling, nuzzling into her neck and kissing her neck.

I am absolutely devastated about this. I am in total shock that my once lovely and respectful dad would do this to a young woman coming into his house to do her job . I am disgusted at the thought of him treating her like this. If this had happened to a friend or relative if mine I’d be telling them to consider going to the police.

I have contacted the care team to find out if he’s behaved like this with any of his carers before but couldn’t get through so have left a message for them.

Obviously I need to speak to him but how do I go about dealing with this? I am absolutely fuming at him and was ready to head over there today to read him the riot act but for various reasons wasn’t able to go. I am going tomorrow with my husband though.

I spoke to my sister about this earlier today to let her know. She lives abroad and is therefore not as involved. She was initially angry about it but has since text me to say that she’s had a long think and while she agrees what he’s done is terrible, she’s not angry and sees him as someone who is lonely, vulnerable and confused and that this is common in elderly people like our dad.

I’m really struggling with this. Can anyone offer any advice as to how to address this?

His most recent MRI discounted dementia.

Firstly he had a CT not MRI. And with either type of scan, although certain appearances may be typical of a patient with dementia, there is no definitive way of demonstrating dementia by scan alone.

To address some points made by pp
Yes, I definitely do think that my dad has lost a sense of empathy. He has become very selfish and self-centred. I don’t mean that to be harsh but it’s just a fact now. He sees very little outside of himself.

I think @Dobbyafreeelf is correct and that the cleaning company are willing to go back because they might suspect it’s medical. The owner told me that they have lots of older clients, some with dementia and that they do this sort of thing. She told me about one of her clients who often answers the door naked.

@Iceskatingfan Thank you, you make a lot of sense. I think you are quite correct in that the carer is so used to this that she didn’t even think to flag it whereas the cleaner hasn’t had the same experience or training. The way it was left with the cleaning boss was that the cleaner was happy to go back if he’d been told to stop and didn’t do it again but then I said that I didn’t think that her going back was a good idea. The boss said to speak to my dad and have a think and get back to her.

@HandforthParishCouncilClerk Educating myself is exactly what I’m trying to do here. I’m here asking for advice, taking it on board and reading all the links. I’m very grateful for everyone’s input especially those with professional and personal experience. It’s been very helpful.

Yes, I do know he’s had a brain injury. His stroke was 6 years ago and he made a pretty good recovery over several months. You might not have noticed there was anything amiss had you not known him previously. He was living totally independently, driving, keeping on top of his house and life-admin (to a degree) He would go on holidays abroad solo and with friends. The decline has been more apparent I would say since 2019 and then definitely more rapidly since the end of 2019 to the present. I’ve asked about dementia several times and have always been told the decline is due to depression.

I don’t think I’ve used the word “vile”. I’ve said that I find his behaviour disgusting and that I’m disgusted at the thought of his actions. I’ve said “ he used to be a lovely man” because that how it feels to me. He’s still my dad and of course I still love him but I find him very difficult to deal with now because quite often he’s really not very nice to me. It is like it’s 2 different people and sometimes when I’m in the thick of it, it’s easy to forget that he’s like this due to illness when he seems “normal” in other ways. I’ve probably not explained that very well - I’ve said “used to” to make the distinction between his behaviour pre-stroke and now iyswim?

@cptartapp

Do you have Power of Attorney? If there is a suggestion of dementia this is just the beginning of a difficult journey.

Not yet, it's been on my radar though. He doesn't like having these kinds of conversations as it implies that I think he's not going to recover whereas he sees his current situation as temporary and that he will get better eventually.

@creepingthyme

This isn't uncommon in elderly, lonely men who HAVEN'T got dementia. They are simply taking advantage. Elderly people with dementia who are displaying inappropriate sexual behaviour often don't differentiate, so might be sexually inappropriate to their daughter or another female relative. Your dad is reserving his consistent 'inappropriateness' for the time he is alone with a female. He needs a firm talking to. Make the carers aware of this and make it a policy that they double up or only allow men.

This happened to my Nan. She was sexually inappropriate to anyone- apart from children. It's like even though her brain was so damaged by the stroke and epilepsy and dementia, but around children she was fine.

I would chase for more tests for dementia. If it's vascular then it can progress quickly.

Also, contact adult social services. They should assess whether he is a risk to others. If it is the dementia then it could happen to you too.

I feel for the poor cleaner. Even if he does have dementia she shouldn't have to experience that. The company should (if they are willing to continue) either send two or three cleaners at once or a male cleaner.

Oh bless you how difficult op. You handled that difficult conversation really well xx

@ChateauMargaux

What a difficult conversion to have had but it really sounds like you were clear. I am sorry you are in this situation and that you have to resolve it.

I hope your father's cleaner does not find herself out of a job or with less income because of this but it does seem like the right thing for her not to continue to work in your father's house. Does the company she works for do cleaning teams? Where there is never one person working alone?

The question about whether carers have to learn how to deal with this type of banter and accept it as part of the job is a really difficult one.

I can only say that you are doing all of the right things.. and I hope you have real life friends to talk to about this too.

Your sister is right, in a way, your Dad has lost his life companion, his job, his identity and his health. He may be really struggling and I presume there are no opportunities for socialising or elderly day care activities at the moment which might at least give him a sense of purpose. I am sure he does physically ache for human comfort and companionship. It is OK to empathise with all of that and to recognise that his behaviour is wrong and to protect the people who are at risk from his behaviour. The two are not mutually exclusive.

I do feel bad about the cleaning company losing business through no fault of their own. I'd imagine that particular cleaner would be redeployed elsewhere though. The company doesn't seem short of work and the boss is always advertising on FB and Instagram for slots for one off cleans, oven cleans etc which seem to fill up quickly. Obviously I can't know for sure though how they operate. They do work in pairs sometimes so that could possibly be an option.

I've tried over the years since his stroke to get my dad interested in a hobby or group activity but he's just not into it. His work was his life and he was never interested in anything else. I'd tell him that it'd be good for him to get out there and engage with people and he'd agree and then expect me to do all the legwork to find him something to do but anything I suggested - golf, local clubs, computer literacy classes, University of the 3rd Age etc was turned down for whatever reason.

The loss of identity and status is definitely very hard for him. He is a man who has enjoyed success in business and the financial rewards and (perceived) status that brings. He has said that he finds his life as it is currently "surreal"

Thank you for all the great advice and for sharing your experiences with me. I'm quite frankly, absolutely frazzled with the whole thing but reading all the comments have really helped me to get a better idea of what could be going on here

OP, sorry that you're going through this. Vascular dementia may be of interest to you, the stroke association has some very well written information on it www.stroke.org.uk/effects-of-stroke/vascular-dementia

I understand your pain and confusion OP. My mother has dementia. A recent brain scan didn't show anything but she has a diagnosis of alzheimers. With her the issue is racism. This is a woman who used to call out people for racist comments. Made doubly difficult because both my DS have non british partners.

@countrygirl99

I understand your pain and confusion OP. My mother has dementia. A recent brain scan didn't show anything but she has a diagnosis of alzheimers. With her the issue is racism. This is a woman who used to call out people for racist comments. Made doubly difficult because both my DS have non british partners.

My Nan was like this too. Before the stroke she would have a go at anyone making racist comments- afterwards she was awful! I would've never believed anyone that said a stroke and/or dementia can change a person so dramatically. Until I saw it with my own eyes.

OP, I hope your father gets the help that he needs. Unfortunately, you may have a fight on your hands to get a proper diagnosis. We did. But social services were great and they helped fight our corner.

I'm glad you have got more information and had that difficult conversation with your father.

Some of the posts earlier seem to be quite muddled and not understand that you don't have to have diagnosed dementia to be sexually or socially inappropriate- as later posters have said, this is common with frontal lobe brain injury, which can happen through illnesses such as tumours, accidents, strokes, as well as dementia.

It is very very difficult to deal with the personality changes and the inappropriate behaviour of someone in this situation, and easy to blame them. There is also the ingrained attitude towards women. I believe your dad when he says he's being friendly in his own mind- unfortunately this constitutes sexual harassment to others. His lack of insight into what he's done and what is 'normal' is also very typical of frontal lobe injury, if you read about it you would see your dad is probably a very typical case in terms of disinhibition, not understanding social norms and lack of insight (feeling they are fine and it is others that are wrong). I also note he's a bit paranoid, which again is quite typical.

I was lucky with my relative with an extensive brain tumour, he was not sexually inappropriate thank goodness as it could have turned into a safeguarding issue, but he was very socially inappropriate, too friendly, and would be practically dragging people off the neighbourhood roads to have a drink with him and wouldn't read the social cues that people didn't want to. He became overly friendly. It was stressful but luckily the people around us were very understanding.

Try to see that his depressed, disinhibited personality IS the result of his stroke- and read a bit about how stroke can change personalities and behaviours, it may make you feel better.

This does not change the fact that this is unacceptable to those who work with him- and that they need to know about his medical conditions, that he's likely to be inappropriate and then manage that as part of their care- the cleaners can perhaps come when the carers are there as well.

Also, if he has a reasonable amount of insight you may just be able to ban him from speaking about certain topics- he won't necessarily understand why, and may think you are being silly, but just explain what the rules are (no touching whatsoever, no remarks about bodies or sex) and go from there, some patients could remember these rules, although when profoundly affected they would not be able to, so it varies from person to person.

This is a very hidden side of brain issues that people often don't expect, but if you google personality changes and stroke, you will see you are not alone.

I've tried over the years since his stroke to get my dad interested in a hobby or group activity but he's just not into it. His work was his life and he was never interested in anything else. I'd tell him that it'd be good for him to get out there and engage with people and he'd agree and then expect me to do all the legwork to find him something to do but anything I suggested - golf, local clubs, computer literacy classes, University of the 3rd Age etc was turned down for whatever reason.

My mother was just like this. When I look back at the long list of things we tried and she rejected, it really is quite depressing. Some of her excuses were ridiculous - for instance, we arranged for the library to deliver books to her, she was really unpleasant to the unfortunate person who did the deliveries because she claimed it was all books she had read or were no good. When I challenged her about what happened in one of the ones she said she'd read, she couldn't answer. And all the time she was complaining how bored she was. A few times I pointed out to her that she wouldn't be bored if she'd just try some of the countless activities she'd been offered, but she just brushed it off. Ultimately we gave up and concluded that what she actually wanted was an excuse to complain.

Thank you for the continued replies and advice. I'm taking it all on board and have spent some time reading up on frontal lobe damage etc.

I spoke to my dad's CPN on Monday. She advised that the care team manager had made her aware of my dad's behaviour and that they would be discussing my dad at their multi-disciplinary meeting yesterday. She updated me this morning:
The Doctor who oversees the team feels that no medicine is appropriate. I should ask for blood and urine tests to be taken to rule out infection. Going forward, they wish to take a behavioural approach. ie in their view me having spoken to him about his behaviour and told him it's wrong is enough for the moment. In their view, as the carers, physios and cpn who deal with him are all trained to handle inappropriate behaviour then they don't need to act further. It's up to me to advise anybody else outwith NHS services who may come into contact with my dad that this may be an issue and for them to maintain strict physical boundaries and deflect any comments.

I was rather taken aback and asked her to clarify that in the absence of any infection etc that they were not going to be doing any further investigations and that from now on it was up to other people to manage their own expectations and behaviour around him rather than trying to figure out the root cause of the behaviour itself. She said yes, that's correct. I explained that I didn't feel that this was the correct approach, that my dad doesn't understand what he's done is very wrong and therefore might not desist. Furthermore, he's a vulnerable man, who may be placed in a situation where he acts inappropriately and the victim may well go to the police. She just basically said that as he's been told it's wrong we just need to watch and wait. She also advised that she didn't think it a good idea for her to talk to him herself as they understood my dad was feeling like the wronged party and that they don't want to alienate him further or cause any mistrust. They need my dad to be onboard and fully engaging with the mental health team and in her opinion to speak to him about it could do more harm than good. She actually said " we don't want to blow this all out of proportion"

I don't really know what to think now. I feel like I've been fobbed off and that they're not going to do anything unless his behaviour escalates.

@Nith

I've tried over the years since his stroke to get my dad interested in a hobby or group activity but he's just not into it. His work was his life and he was never interested in anything else. I'd tell him that it'd be good for him to get out there and engage with people and he'd agree and then expect me to do all the legwork to find him something to do but anything I suggested - golf, local clubs, computer literacy classes, University of the 3rd Age etc was turned down for whatever reason.

My mother was just like this. When I look back at the long list of things we tried and she rejected, it really is quite depressing. Some of her excuses were ridiculous - for instance, we arranged for the library to deliver books to her, she was really unpleasant to the unfortunate person who did the deliveries because she claimed it was all books she had read or were no good. When I challenged her about what happened in one of the ones she said she'd read, she couldn't answer. And all the time she was complaining how bored she was. A few times I pointed out to her that she wouldn't be bored if she'd just try some of the countless activities she'd been offered, but she just brushed it off. Ultimately we gave up and concluded that what she actually wanted was an excuse to complain.

Yep, I can relate to this, and the wanting to complain aspect. My dad definitely feels like it's up to other people to "fix" things for him. That he's someone who needs help and it's up to everyone else to facilitate him, even in regards to things he's capable of doing himself.

He can be quite disparaging of certain branches of the NHS because of their collective failure to "cure" him but takes no responsibility for his own health and well-being. It can be very draining.

i don't know what to say.... but I can see how that is a difficult response to digest!! hugs..

Ultimately we gave up and concluded that what she actually wanted was an excuse to complain. I can see that makes sense. She's not happy with her life, she may not even know why, or it may be something unchangeable like the generally crapness of watching your body fall to bits as you age. So she needs something tangible to complain about, to express her feelings. In the same way as it seems silly to by raging at an insentient virus, so people rage instead at the government, or the petty infringements of their neighbours.

@ChateauMargaux

i don't know what to say.... but I can see how that is a difficult response to digest!! hugs..

Thanks ChateauMargaux. You're right, very difficult to digest!

I'm torn between believing the professionals and trusting their experience. That this is their line of work and they know what their doing and that this is just so awful that there must be more to it that needs investigation.

I feel like I've been fobbed off and that they're not going to do anything unless his behaviour escalates. Well, I suppose if speaking to him enables him to regulate his behaviour, it doesn't benefit him to undergo investigations as to why especially if it would make no difference to treatment.

You're expecting it to make no difference. Start keeping a diary, so you can go back with dates and times to show that his behaviour is the same or deteriorating. And of course request those blood tests.

Try if you can to separate this behaviour from the person. The "kind loving and doting Dad" is who he is. It's the stroke/brain damage/green goblin residing in his brain who is the sexual harasser.

Ask anyone in care/nursing this is VERY VERY common .

Have a chat with the career and ask there views

Judgement , appropriateness and awareness are all commons signs wouldn't be to quick to wright him off as a dirty old man and some of the people on her are .

Thanks @MereDintofPandiculation Keeping a log of things is a good idea and I take your point about investigations maybe not affecting treatment anyway. You're right about separating the person and the behaviour. It's something my husband tries to remind me to do.

Wow.

I just hope you're able to keep any vulnerable women from him now it's all out in the open.

I feel sorry the cleaner who's lost her job after being harassed and molested, she was very brave to speak up. I hope the cleaning company didn't dismiss her for losing the contract.

It seems like you and her have born the weight of this whole situation.

You seem like a really lovely person though, I hope this works out for you.

@TubbyMcFatfuck

Thank you all for the replies. You are all so kind

There is no formal diagnosis of dementia. They scanned his brain when he was in hospital in September last year and found no evidence. That’s not to say that there isn’t dementia there now right enough. Would it escalate so quickly? Wouldn’t there be other signs?

He definitely has mental capacity and plenty self-awareness. There has definitely been mental impairment caused by the stroke but if you didn’t know him pre-stroke then you might not really notice. The depression and lack of physical mobility are his main issues. The depression is quite debilitating and the reason why he has the carers in.

If I speak to him, he will definitely understand it’s wrong. My fear and gut feeling is that he will deny or minimise as this is what he always does when confronted with something unpleasant that he doesn’t want to deal with.

I will be notifying his carers of course. The cleaner says she is ok about going back if I speak to him but I really do not think this is a good idea at all and would rather source a male cleaner.

I have read the link and will look at Headway. Thank you so much

One thing is sure and that is that there isn't one set of behaviour for people with dementia. Some revert to childhood, want dolls and sweeties, some get aggressive, some get terrified and sometimes they move from one to another.

Sexual disinhibition isn't unusual and it isn't restricted to men, my elderly aunt went through a phase for about two years where her behaviour to male carers in her home was horrendous and the things she'd say were more than I ever wanted to know about her sexual fantasies. That stopped and then the terror started about the spiders, huge spiders all over her room, we then moved on to wanting her mum. Currently she says very little, does very little and we move towards the end.

I found it really hard to get a diagnosis for her, she was very convincing and I had issues like the Geriatric Psychiatrist telling me off for letting her attned a hospital appointment that involved two bus journeys. I had to ask him to check with hospital transport to prove she had gone by taxi arranged by them, he didn't find me nearly as convincing as her. Social workers assured me she was shopping and eating and when I was there when they visited (not easy I live 200 miles away and am my husband's carer) I had to take them in the kitchen and show them the empty cupboards and fridge while she was assuring them about what she had cooked that day, I got them to check the bins with me to prove she had not peeled potatoes onions and carrots to make the wonderful casserole she was adamant she had prepared, cooked and eaten.

Maybe it isn't dementia but I would watch things carefully, it can progress fast or slow and that can change, so someone who has been deteriorating slowly for several years can suddenly change very rapidly.

Good luck, the strain is horrific and the only advice I can give you is to get all the help you can and if you can afford it consult a private social worker for advice as my experience was the council ones will spend alot of time telling you there is nothing wrong.

I just want to say that I think you've done a great, proactive, assertive job of handling this. It's a horrible thing to go through and you've advocated brilliantly for the cleaner as well as supporting your dad.

If they think he just needs speaking to I would have thought they should speak to him. And he just might take more notice of them than his offspring. I can imagine not wanting to take advice from my DS or DD.