My dad has sexually harassed his cleaner

[TubbyMcFatfuck]

Hi, have been lurking here for a while but this is my first post on this board. I have an issue with my 75 yr old dad and could use some perspective and advice. Sorry if this is long

My mum died 6yrs ago and shortly after my dad had a stroke. He suffered physical and mental impairment. He recovered reasonably well but hasn’t regained all of his physical or mental function. As a result of his ill health he can no longer work having previously been a workaholic. He lost his wife, his health, his work and raison d’etre within the space of a few months. His personality has changed to a large extent and sometimes it’s very hard to recognise the person he is now as my previously kind, loving and doting dad.

His health has not been great over the past 6 years. He is prone to self neglect, is depressed has poor mobility and struggles to cope with day to day tasks. Lockdown has not helped and after a 6 week hospital stay last year, he now has carers going in twice a day as well as district nurses and a physio. We also got him a cleaner as the house was getting in a state.

Today the owner of the cleaning company contacted me and told me that my dad has been what amounts to sexually harassing his cleaner for weeks. Making comments about her taking off her top, telling her he’ll get in the shower with her and wash her as well as cuddling, nuzzling into her neck and kissing her neck.

I am absolutely devastated about this. I am in total shock that my once lovely and respectful dad would do this to a young woman coming into his house to do her job . I am disgusted at the thought of him treating her like this. If this had happened to a friend or relative if mine I’d be telling them to consider going to the police.

I have contacted the care team to find out if he’s behaved like this with any of his carers before but couldn’t get through so have left a message for them.

Obviously I need to speak to him but how do I go about dealing with this? I am absolutely fuming at him and was ready to head over there today to read him the riot act but for various reasons wasn’t able to go. I am going tomorrow with my husband though.

I spoke to my sister about this earlier today to let her know. She lives abroad and is therefore not as involved. She was initially angry about it but has since text me to say that she’s had a long think and while she agrees what he’s done is terrible, she’s not angry and sees him as someone who is lonely, vulnerable and confused and that this is common in elderly people like our dad.

I’m really struggling with this. Can anyone offer any advice as to how to address this?

Hi OP, not sure if this will be helpful or not, but my Uncle had a stroke in his late 40s as a result of a heavy smoking habit.

Since his stroke he has limited mobility and has to use a wheelchair. There's also been changes in his personality, such as making inappropriate, often sexual comments to nurses, family and carers. He once made a comment to me about how 'sexy' my teenage cousin was at our grandfather's funeral! I won't leave my daughter in a room with him as I don't trust him to not act out. He also has lost empathy and now only cares about himself.

I don't know a lot about how strokes work on the neurological side of things, but I wonder if it damaged the part of the brain which is responsible for impulse control and empathy. This may also explain your father's behaviour towards the cleaner if dementia is ruled out.

I'm really sorry you are going through this, it is so sad.

I suspect the cleaning company are willing to go back because they too are looking at it as a medical issue.
FWIW I'm a self employed carer and have had several clients act in the same way as your father. Usually it's a case of just having very firm boundaries and shutting any 'banter' down as quickly as it starts. I also somehow view it very separately from sexual harassment outside of the workplace. I know my client is acting that way because of their condition not because that is who they are.

I know it's a shock for you but try not to judge your father too harshly until he has had an assessment.

My suggestion would be that he have two cleaners going in together for awhile.

Frankly I’m a bit embarrassed by the judgemental tone of some people on here who seem happy to go steaming in despite an obvious lack of knowledge about what is quite a common situation in elderly people with neurological issues. If he is suffering from dementia then “giving him a good talking to” is not going to solve the problem. My mum was in a care home for five years and I saw this sort of behaviour regularly, from both men and women. The care staff were trained to deal with it, as it appears the care staff used by OP are - the cleaner is not.

That isn’t to say that the situation can continue - the cleaner must be kept safe.

@MrsFezziwig

Frankly I’m a bit embarrassed by the judgemental tone of some people on here who seem happy to go steaming in despite an obvious lack of knowledge about what is quite a common situation in elderly people with neurological issues. If he is suffering from dementia then “giving him a good talking to” is not going to solve the problem. My mum was in a care home for five years and I saw this sort of behaviour regularly, from both men and women. The care staff were trained to deal with it, as it appears the care staff used by OP are - the cleaner is not.

That isn’t to say that the situation can continue - the cleaner must be kept safe.

I totally agree - I have already said this further up thread, and am saddened that that's the attitude of some of the posters on this thread

My friend's dad was a lovely man, very courteous, proper, very intelligent. Until he got sick, I think it was frontotemporal dementia. And then when he was talking to people, anyone from his daughter to the postman, he would ask them about their sex life, how was it, when was the last time they had sex, etc etc.

Completely unlike him but very common with that form of dementia unfortunately.

OP, I’m glad you have spoken to the carers and found that this is not an isolated incident as I was also going to say that this sounds like a frontal lobe brain issue of some kind. I’m a GP and used to work in a care home as a student as well during holidays, and it is really common to see this sort of thing, not only in dementia but also stroke, alcoholic brain damage and other illnesses.

You yourself have said that his personality has changed and as you have discovered, carers will often be used to such behaviour and not flag it as a concern in the way that a cleaner might do. It’s also true to say that even if the behaviour is focussed primarily on one person it doesn’t mean there isn’t a medical cause. Frontal lobe disinhibition removes a filter of social acceptability and impulse control, so for example if you see a guy you think is attractive on the street and have an urge to kiss him which normally you obviously wouldn’t, if your frontal lobe is affected you’ll just go ahead! But if you didn’t notice the guy as being attractive to you in the first place then this doesn’t arise.

I was also going to say that if the cleaner isn’t phased by it I’m not sure you are doing her a favour by putting her out of a job for drawing this to your attention! I totally understand that you want to look out for her and also agree overall it might be best for someone different to go in but she may well feel differently about it if it’s a medical issue.

You’re right that it’s not nice to have to deal with this sort of thing whether it’s a medical issue or not but it definitely does change how much it would bother me, when you know it’s not deliberately hurtful behaviour. It’s the same with physical violence, one patient tried to punch my lights out once as a junior doctor when his oxygen levels were low and the poor man was in tears apologising to me the next day in complete mortification when he recovered. I really didn’t hold it against him at all, as he was not well enough to be in control of his actions at the time.

I think you should try to think of this the same way with your dad, it’s not something he is in control of from the sounds of it and it’s part of an illness. Don’t let it change or cloud your knowledge and memory of who your father is and his usual personality.

Strokes often lead to a change in personality. My MIL used to do anything to avoid confrontation. Now she has been banned from a couple of pub restaurants as if her meal isn't served instantly after her order she bangs the table and screams loudly. Literally after a minute.

MrsFezziweg people are suggesting he might just be taking advantage as the OP herself said there has been nothing medically to date to suggest otherwise. He most recent MRI discounted dementia. That is not to say he has not developed it of late, but equally there is nothing to suggest that he cannot help his actions.

And in my medical experience people suffering from dementia do not exclusively reserve their sexual inappropriateness for one person exclusively whilst they are alone. There is an element of opportunism here that needs to be considered. Whether it is his fault or not is a red herring, the point of pertinence is that steps need to be taken to protect female workers around him (which the OP is doing anyway).

You really need to reframe your thinking. Many, many people on this thread have told you this is extremely common behaviour following a stroke. Your dad has had a brain injury. You know this. This is almost certainly the cause of his changed behaviour. Yet you refer to him as ‘vile’, ‘disgusting’, ‘used to be a lovely man’.

He still is a lovely man, he’s still the dad you knew, he just now has a brain injury.

Please educate yourself about the long term effects of stroke, and vascular and frontal lobe dementia. This isn’t his fault and your sister is right.

RTFT @creepingthyme - he hasn’t had an MRI. Only a CT, which showed brain injury. And the disinhibition isn’t only directed towards one person.

Do you have Power of Attorney?
If there is a suggestion of dementia this is just the beginning of a difficult journey.

I'm still absolutely devastated by this though and I'm not at all comfortable with framing sexual harassment as "banter" I think she's using this word to distinguish between groping and purely verbal harassment, and between harassment by someone who knows what they're doing is wrong and doesn't care, and someone who no longer knows that what they are doing is wrong. It's not the same as the harasser saying "It was just banter".

It's a long time ago, and awareness has changed hugely, but i was trained as a sexual harassment contact person many years ago, and one thing that was drummed into us was that if the victim felt it was harassment, it was. It was for the victim to determine whetehr harassment had occurred, not the perpetrator, not the SHCP, not management, not anyone else. Maybe that works both ways? If the carer feels if was what she calls "banter" and not sexual harassment, we should accept that?

The cleaner clearly feels she was subject to harassment. But there again, awhile action must be taken to keep her safe, there's no point blaming your father if he has lost the function in the part of the brain dealing with such stuff.

@HandforthParishCouncilClerk

You really need to reframe your thinking. Many, many people on this thread have told you this is extremely common behaviour following a stroke. Your dad has had a brain injury. You know this. This is almost certainly the cause of his changed behaviour. Yet you refer to him as ‘vile’, ‘disgusting’, ‘used to be a lovely man’.

He still is a lovely man, he’s still the dad you knew, he just now has a brain injury.

Please educate yourself about the long term effects of stroke, and vascular and frontal lobe dementia. This isn’t his fault and your sister is right.

Excellent post

Hi, thank you for all the further replies and advice. I'm still reading but haven't had the chance to sit down and reply properly. I'll be back in a bit to update

I went down to see my dad yesterday afternoon. I told him that we had to have an important chat about something and it was probably going to be an unpleasant and difficult conversation. I was measured and calm. I read out the email from the cleaning company and asked him if he had indeed said those things. He said he didn’t remember. I asked him if he’d cuddled his cleaner and nuzzled and kissed her neck and he got cagey. I said I’d spoken to the care team manager and that his carer had said there had been some “banter” I asked him if he’d ever asked for a “full body massage” or “extra services” He said yes, but that they were just jokes. I asked him again about cuddling his cleaner and he said yes he had but he was just being friendly.

I explained that it was wrong to do this as it had made his cleaner feel awkward and uncomfortable and that she didn’t want to come back to his house. He got very annoyed and said “ they’re just saying this because it’s been on the tv and in the news. It’s a bandwagon and they’re all jumping on it. It’s been blown out of all proportion” He went on to suggest that the cleaner must have some ulterior motive and was probably wanting to extort money from him.

We discussed back and forward about how comments and actions like this make women feel uncomfortable and unsafe but he kept on insisting that they were just jokes and he was just being friendly. “I’m good friends with these people and that’s just the type of friendship we have”

I explained that whilst it’s great to be on good terms and have good working relationships with people, that’s exactly what these “friendships” are: working relationships. These women are paid professionals providing a vital service, not popping in for tea and a blether just because they want to.

He just kept on insisting that they were wrong to feel uncomfortable and that cuddles, kisses and “banter” was all par for the course in these types of friendship.

I wasn’t getting him to understand so tried to get him to compare these current women and the type of “friendship” he feels he has with them to other women he’s known throughout his life: family friends, his friends’ wives, previous colleagues and employees he’s known over the years. When I asked if he’d ever kiss their necks or make sexual innuendos to them he looked horrified and said “of course not!” But still couldn’t make the logical connection that it’s not ok to do it to his carers and his cleaners. When I asked him if it was all completely innocent and friendly, would he have done it in front of my mum had she been alive, he looked sheepish and said no.

He then said he felt betrayed and like he’d been stabbed in the back by both the cleaner and the carer. He thought he had a good friendship with them both but here they are talking about him, complaining to their bosses and taking things out of context. Always insisting that it’s just jokes, banter and being friendly.

Pp made an excellent point upthread and I said as much to my dad: that it doesn’t matter what his motives or intentions are and that if a women feels like she’s been harassed and is upset about it and feeling like she doesn’t want to come into work then her feelings are valid and the behaviour causing it needs to stop. Again he said, she’s wrong and she shouldn’t be feeling like that because he was only joking.

I wasn’t really getting anywhere. He didn’t acknowledge that he’d done anything wrong but did agree that he wouldn’t be doing it again. He absolutely thinks that he’s been painted in a bad light, betrayed by people he trusted and liked and that this is all a massive overreaction.

He’s not happy that his GP and CPN will be spoken to and seemed genuinely shocked that this might be a symptom of dementia or something medical. I explained that this type of behaviour is out of character for him and cited the comparison to the relationships he’s had with other women over the years, and that it’s very common for people at his stage in life, so much so that his carer has had specific training in how to deal with such behaviour in her clients.

Overall he’s not happy at all and can’t believe that I’m taking their word over his. I told him it’s not a case of believing one side over another as he’s admitted to doing it, the difference is that I don’t find it acceptable and he thinks it should be

It does sound like a loss of inhibition as a result of frontal lobe dementia which is not uncommon after a stroke or a series of mini-stroke. It sounds out of behaviour for your DF to behave like this. I think he needs to be re-assessed as he’s not got form for acting like this throughout his life so far.

I agree you need to find a male cleaner (maybe try advertising on gumtree, nextdoor, InYourArea etc. Or see if you can get a firm who will send out two cleaners together on jobs.

What a difficult conversion to have had but it really sounds like you were clear. I am sorry you are in this situation and that you have to resolve it.

I hope your father's cleaner does not find herself out of a job or with less income because of this but it does seem like the right thing for her not to continue to work in your father's house. Does the company she works for do cleaning teams? Where there is never one person working alone?

The question about whether carers have to learn how to deal with this type of banter and accept it as part of the job is a really difficult one.

I can only say that you are doing all of the right things.. and I hope you have real life friends to talk to about this too.

Your sister is right, in a way, your Dad has lost his life companion, his job, his identity and his health. He may be really struggling and I presume there are no opportunities for socialising or elderly day care activities at the moment which might at least give him a sense of purpose. I am sure he does physically ache for human comfort and companionship. It is OK to empathise with all of that and to recognise that his behaviour is wrong and to protect the people who are at risk from his behaviour. The two are not mutually exclusive.

Unfortunately this is common with Dementia and he may stay like this for a long time before he then has a drop in cognition. Absolutely get him assessed and I would start reading up on Dementia and how it can affect people. More so, do some reading incase he is diagnosed and you know where you may be heading, it’s truly a heartbreaking condition.

Care staff are trained in this kind of behaviour, due to the nature of their roles and you will find that they will work in pairs to safeguard themselves if someone exhibits this kind of behaviour, it’s the same if someone shows violence due to the condition

I work with older neuro patients too and this is very common. I wouldn't mention it to relatives either as it's part and parcel of brain damage and we are trained to deal with it.

I'm really sorry op. I know it's really difficult to hear what he's been doing but please remember that he's still your dad and he's not being malicious. His brain function is damaged and the world will seem different to him now.

You say he's prone to self neglect? I'd want to rule out dehydration / UTIs as well as that can affect personality and behaviour. Or drug side effects if anything had been changed. But ultimately, it sounds like multi infarct or vascular dementia.

So sorry to read this. My ex boss had a stroke and, after this, was prone to making very out of character statements and would get confused getting back to his office. One day he called all the girls in the office c@nts, something that just wouldn't have happened. It was a job that was very public facing, so he wasn't allowed to see people without someone out present.

Good advice from the latest two posts. Knowing what the situation is, you will be in a better position to ensure that the care he gets is properly trained and appropriate. If that means having dimensia trained carers there when the cleaning is done, that could help.

I'm sorry to say that it's possible that your dad, who has always been lovely to you, has done this before, and it's nothing to do with age or dementia. I cannot count the number of "lovely dads" who've sexually harassed me and women I know just because they can.

You sound amazing and I'm sorry you are having to deal with this.

Hmm. Bit of disinhibition bit of misogyny and male entitlement methinks. You handled the conversation well I think.

Just read your whole thread and updates. I think you have been very measured in your approach and management of it - I like that you planned and scheduled in the discussion in this way I think it has shown you alot. I would encourage you to give your dad a day or two to reflect on your discussion - it is not unusual for people to be in denial when confronted especially if he has constructed a story for himself about everyone being 'his friends' and 'the discussions and actions are mutual'. He now knows different even if he is trying to deflect and act defensively and like hes the victim.

I am not sure if this is a medical issue or also a combination of life events, losing wife; health crisis; loss of status etc through work - it could be a complex blend of factors but whatever has happened his behaviour is completely unacceptable and illegal which he needs to understand. I can understand why you might think a solution is to request male staff but that might not be the best solution - there are many women in caring professions so he will still come in contact with women, its his actions that need to change. I think the cleaner's manager needs to also meet with him to reinforce the problem, he needs to understand there are consequences and irrespective of what has happened in his life, he is not above the law. Not helping him to understand this will only push the problem under the carpet. It is good that his GP and CPN will be involved in further assessment, he needs to also understand that his response to this situation will be used as part of that assessment of his cognitive functioning and capacity as well as risk assessing him for services. I realize you are finding this very upsetting to deal with as you are thinking about the man you have always known; it does sound like he has lost some perspective and the lack of taking responsibility would personally be a major concern for me if he doesn't shift on this position. He may benefit from some counselling to help him think about the way he is processing things especially if the problem always is located somewhere else. It does not sound as though he would meet a criteria for loss of capacity - so its important the team around him and family work with him to hold him to account for his actions rather than work around him and contain his behaviour through keeping him away from women. It is hard but if you are thinking about his future this approach is a better course of action.