2:2 now not a 'good enough' degree?

[Cortina]

I saw a thread, earlier today, I think on AIBU. Someone was cruising for a 2:2 at Uni. They said that this wasn't enough to secure employment and many were agreeing.

In my day, insert old git icon , a 2:2, especially from a well regarded university, was a perfectly respectable degree.

Have things really changed so much?

When I applied on the milk round twenty years ago a desmond wasn't good enough.

These days you need a good degree from a good uni in a rigourous subject, and something to make you stand out.

This is why I smile at posters saying well I did okay. completely different state of play these days.

I got my IIii almost 30 yrs ago from a RG university and it got me a graduate job in a blue chip company.

Back in those days only a very small percentage of people went to university.

at it still being known as a desmond - I'd forgotten that!

I was put in a spot by some bloke who asked me for a chat after I applied for a job (after 5 years in my first post-Uni job) - it was a research position and he told me that, with my degree result, I obviously didn't have a first class brain and might not be suited to research. I couldn't say anything because the reason I got my desmond was sheer lack of working hard enough - not exactly a desirable attribute in the research (or indeed any) working field. It stung though.

What does flippin annoy me is 'the older generation' nodding sagely and saying that of course young people today have it easy/ expect it to be handed to them on a plate/need to get on their bike/need to do the volunteering job as well as the degree/need to be multiskilled/ will need to retrain at least once in their careers etc- whereas they themselves did none of that! Free higher education, job for life, more or less guaranteed promotion, big pension, first house a 3x multiple of one salary.

Personally I weep for today's 20 year olds. Royally shafted.

I graduated 6 years ago, a 2.2 wasnt any good then really.

I got a 2.1 and was gutted.

That's a Russell Group Uni. It absolutely does matter which Uni its from and what subject its in. For example, my degree subject was a joint honours, the departments are both some of the best for that subject in the country and its a Russell Group Uni too. I think its fair enough that that matters.

A 'Desmond' has always been seen as second class.

I graduated 20 odd years ago from manchester and a 2:2 would have been disappointing imo.

So, I dont think anything has changed re the grades, but the number of applicants per jobs is a bit of a shocker.

All the jobs I went for out of uni stated 2:1 or above. Any CVs coming in at less were automatically disregarded.

Fwiw Im a SAHM now so didnt really need the 2.1 since it wasnt in changing nappies, hoovering and playdough making!

Yes and you uneed v good UCAS points on the graduate milk round nowadays too.

I have a 2:2 in Law from King's and all As at A level and I think I was very lucky to get onto a graduate scheme at a Big 4 accountancy firm in 1999, I think I only managed it because I had relevant work experience and extra curricular activities and because it was a boom year for graduate recruitment, even then I did not officially meet their requirements.

Even in my day (um, about 15 years ago), a even having a 2ii in law from a RG university limited your graduate opportunities. A lot of top tier service sector employers (like City law firms, accountancy firms, consultancies, investment banks) had 2i has a basic hurdle for application regardless of where the degree was from. I suspect that the firms and sectors below these have simply picked up the same qualifying criteria as the number of graduates has expanded.

FWIW I think it's reflective of our ridiculous degree classification system which (when I was at uni) meant that a 2ii spanned the gamut of percentage grades from 50.0% - 59.9% covering people who tried really hard and very close to a 2i to people who didn't open a book at any point during university. Putting a 2ii as a qualification criteria just simplifies everything for employers.

As for me, I scraped in to the 2i category at 60.3%!

And for many jobs the competition comes not just from this country.
The world is a mobile place these days.
Applicants for a training contract at a city law firm will come from all over the world. Many will speak a number of languages.

What about teaching? You used to be ok with a 2:2 for that, and possibly a third?

I imagine the entry criteria will go up now more have degrees etc?

Not any more for teaching, for recent graduates at least. 2:ii minimum and PGCEs in competitive subjects often require a 2:i....

And that's something you definitely need to be demonstrating related experience for. And a stunning reference from your tutor.

I cherish the memory of a really obnoxious classmate of mine who never did anything for tutorials looking at the list, shrugging at his 2:ii, saying he'd 'just teach' and being thoroughly put straight by a passing tutor.

But you can do it with a 2ii? So wasn't he right? (Rather worryingly given what you've said).

agree with frakkit

one of the things I found stood me in good stead was having worked as a waitress then later doing part-time admin-type stuff

shows you can turn up on time and not piss off customers

unfortunately increasingly fewer jobs of course though

Competitive subject...He was then planning to 'go into primary cos it was easy teaching little ones'. 2.i required for that too.

That was quite possibly the highlight of that day for most of us. He was soooo cocky.

Subjects where there's a shortage of applicants you can do with a 2.ii - maths and sciences spring to mind.

Litchick makes some good points. What cut it 15-20yrs ago, wont cut it now (although I'm not sure a 2:2 was good enough 15 yrs ago, you certainly found the odd one or two who'd got through milk round type processes with a Des)

The competition for the top grad jobs is so international these days and grads are so much more serious about it- relevant work experience is pretty much a must. I did a talk to undergrads at LSE a few years ago on women in asset management and it was insane. I was there answering questions for 3 hrs after the talk. It was almost 100% international students. I couldnt help contrasting with my student days when milkround was an opportunity to get some free food/wine.

DH and I were just watching a programme on Chinese high school exams (there was nothing else on). We were just laughing, saying "oh my God. How is the Uk going to compete with that?" The competition and ambition was out of this world.

I think nowadays if you spend 3 years at uni at upwards of 15K and get a 2ii, it is a complete waste of time.

DD is seriously considering giving the whole thing a miss and going straight into teh RAF at 18. Which I am not too happy about to be honest. I would rather have 3 years of fun and study before she starts work.

However, it seems that student life is so much harder for them nowadays. It's all right if you are in your 30s now, and went to university in teh halcyon days of grants and free tuition, and the milkround. Not so much now.

I feel very sorry for teenagers now, they are going to have it a lot harder than we did.

It used to be that working class/poor students were more able to go to university as there was funding/support in place, and a very good chance of getting a job at the end of it. Where is the appeal now? We have got to teh point where perfectly able and intelligent kids (like my dd) are turning away from teh chance of a university education, as there are so many hurdles, and teh alternatives look more attractive.

I think it's a bloody crying shame. Where to lay teh blame? The proliferation of universoties (old polys) which have cheapened the value of a degree? There must be something in it surely. My cousin went to a new uni and got a 2ii in Football Studies. What a waste of bloody time.

I don't want to get into the usual snobbery about whether posh unis are better than ex polys but wanted to add that it doesn't help that competition for graduate jobs is so high.

In the area I want to get into, there are at least 300 applicants per post and that goes up to 500 in London.

The calibre of international graduates today is frightening.

I manage an Indian engineer who is coming to the end of my company's grad training programme. He got a first degree at Bangalore uni (excellent university), MEng from Bristol, MBA from Bath. He is 10 times more intelligent than me. He speaks 5 languages. His work ethic and attention to detail is exraordinary.

Just imterviewed for anotehr grad trainee role - the UK candidates with their various degrees (in equine studies, Marketing and general business studies degrees) could not compare with the international applicants who had 2 or 3 degrees, relevant work experience placements and languages galore.

Compared with the emerging economies we are falling rapidly behind.

This country will be a very different place in 50 years time.

GOML - the forcesa ctually offer some very generous sponsorships, which might be worth your DD looking into. The RAF will fully fund some engineering degrees etc.

But to answer the question as to why degrees are not sufficient in themselves - well we have too many students taking degrees for a diminsishing amount of grad level jobs.
Add to that the enormous competition coming from abroad.

This country will be a very different place in 50 years time.

How exactly?

Sorry, crossed with you.

I think too that it is the acceptance that things are changing so much that fuels a lot of education based anxiety. Perfectly understandable.

That's why so many 'agencies' are expanding into the realm of the tutor and 'Governess'. It sounds like it will be a very competitive world going forward.

Really students at school need to be made aware of the scary competition they face.

No-one told me 10 years ago that I really did need to do well, get into a top uni, do a respected subject, work hard, keep up the 2 languages I learnt at school but didn't take further to at least conversational level, start getting work placements the year after my A-levels, be prepared to do a post-grad and network like made at every careers event at uni if I wanted to be a lawyer/go into the city.

I picked that up the hard way and have actually be quite fortunate that I work in a field where my greatest assets appear to be accidents of birth!