2:2 now not a 'good enough' degree?

[Cortina]

I saw a thread, earlier today, I think on AIBU. Someone was cruising for a 2:2 at Uni. They said that this wasn't enough to secure employment and many were agreeing.

In my day, insert old git icon , a 2:2, especially from a well regarded university, was a perfectly respectable degree.

Have things really changed so much?

Certainly becoming a barrister is pretty much impossible unless you have parents with money. First degree/law degree followed by conversion or at least BVC (fees £14k or something mad, no scholarships), finding a pupillage only possible if you are brilliant and/or with connections. Then very low pay for the first few years of qualifying...scary. Govt grants might do you for your first degree but that's it, and even they don't always cover everything

Personality and having get up and go is more important than degree classification.

"A 2.2 was never good enough and you be better off claiming to have spent three years in prison than admitting to a third IME"

That is the greatest load of bollox. Sorry. One of the most sucessful people I know graduated with a third in Physics. He is self employed as a financial advisor. Unlike many people with 2.1s he was very enterprising and prepared to do anything.

My husband is sucessful and also has a third in Physics. Maybe it helps doing a doing in a tough subject, I don't know.

A good degree has never been a pathway to a career. Doing well involves hard work and luck.

tutu - did that 2:ii get you your first job? Do you have a good industry reference?

If the answer to both of those is yes then it was more than good enough. The problem now is getting a job with 'just' a 2:ii. Employers are demanding 2:is (minimum) from recent graduates.

Bonsoir - yu make a fiar point.
My DC are very advantaged but I try to ensure they are not pampered.
They know that high levels of achievement ( in line with their ability) are expected and high levels of effort are de rigour.

Money/things/praise are not doled out regardless of our siuation.

Tutu it's not worthless for us, the point is the competition for new graduates is ridiculously fierce in this economic downturn. We are lucky, my 2:2 has never held me back and now I have the work history under my belt which is what employers really want, the problem for new grads is they can't get that first job these days.

Mind you I do wonder if I ought to have queried mine, I think it was 58% overall in the end, I didn't realise it would matter.

LOL Reallytired my brother has a 3rd in Physics from Cambridge - puts you off the subject if noone gets graded higher doesn't it! He's fine, working in IT, doing well and all.

About 10 years ago I had a boyfriend who was doing a degree in Economics, even then the general consensus was that a 2:2 was pretty pointless.

Another friend was doing Law and she also got a 2:2 and had to up sticks and move to London in order to get a job related to her degree, even in the city we were in the wouldn't look at her with less than a 2:1.

Yet another friend got a 3rd in chemistry and told everyone that he flunked out in the final year rather than admit it. We were great mates for many years and it was only the meeting of an old friend of his who told me about this 3rd that forced him to admit it to me.

I never went to Uni, just wasn't an option for me with my background. Am doing a degree with the OU but don't know how well thought of they are. It is more important for me to be educated to degree level for myself rather than expecting it to take me anywhere iyswim.

I think it really does make a difference where you've been. One of my friends got kicked off his science degree course at Durham after his second year for poor marks, got taken in by Hull, submitted a couple of his essays at Hull (the ones which had ended up in his dismissal at Durham) and was awarded a 1st for them. And Hull isn't even one of the least selective universities of course. It goes without saying that if a university has average entry requirements of CCC still awards a similar proportion of 1sts, 2:1s, 2:2s and 3rds, these grades are not going to be equal to those given at a university which requires AAA for entry.

a university which has

I work in graduate recruitment, and certainly in the case of the company i recruit for, where you studied makes no difference whatsoever. Which I feel is important. What you studied can be important, but only really for specialist roles, most general business type graduate jobs don't really mind what what you studied, they are just looking for someone who can prove that they are able to put the 3 years work in and see a degree through to the end. The reason why so many companies are requiring a 2:1 for all vacancies is simply due to the amount of applications they recieve and it is an easy way to narrow down the field a little, although as said earlier as around 70% of grads are now getting at least a 2:1, this doesn't narrow things down very much.

The problem is that as well as looking at Uni's as a whole you have to consider some departments. I went to Uni in Wales where over all I'm sure the Uni wasn't really well respected but the Psych department was rated as one of the top 5. Problem is outside of Psychology no-one would know that.

I came from a crap school, council estate, single parent family, and no-one told me how important it was which uni I went to. I had no idea! I didn't have the A level grades for Oxbridge but could have gone to a better uni.

Still, I got the job I wanted (shame it hasn't lived up to the dream ), and met DH at Uni so I shouldn't regret it it, but still resent the smirk I get when I say I went to Bangor Uni. I did get a first though, and was the first person in my whole extended family to go to uni so I should be grateful.

It was me who started the thread last night in AIBU.

I was told by my Director of Studies not to get my hopes up of getting a 2:1 and im pissed off I let myself down. I dont see how im going to average at 66 percent in everything next year but im trying not to give up hope.

Im just worried that I had wasted my time. The news here (Scotland) had been full of stories yesterday about how a 2:2 menat nothing anymore. I guess I will just have to see what happens.

Bumperlicious, I feel for you. I think it's really unfair that all universities and courses are pitched as being equal when they simply are not. The only way you can tell the difference is by having a bit of inside knowledge (basically having middle class parents who know what's what and/or going to a good/private school with good careers dept who will be straight with you). Too many teenagers are getting into a shitload of debt for a degree that won't mean much in the outside world. Another one that gets me is law conversion courses, who will accept anyone with a 2:2 (fees are pretty high though) but after 2 years of law you're basically no closer to a law career than before. The market is flooded.

Maybe this is the way industry is picking the kids that should have gone to uni over those that really shouldn't but because our great and good past government wanted everyone to have the chance to go you got kids that really weren't up tp scrath and maybe should have taken up an apprenticeship?

I didn't go to university but had a psychologist rant at me that he couldn't work out which way the paper went into the fax machine yesterday (er the little diagram with the corner flapped over with the writing on clearly shows you face down!) and then today had 3 trainee psychologists all with degrees trying to start a car in the car park to move it as they had been blocked in and they just couldn't understand why a new car wouldn't start when you pressed the power button if you had all the doors open!!!

I don't think having a degree unless it is in something pretty specific shows you are at all brighter than the next person - maybe just shows that you are good at studying whereas the next person has more common sense - at morgan stanley we used to test the graduate recruits by asking them to send a fax and pointing them towards the photocopier - spent hours pissing ourselves whilst they looked blankly.

Bumper me too- similar background, didn't realise any of the whole Uni rep thing; knew Oxbridge etc but not much more. Grabbed the first Uni place offered to me, now with kids etc I wouldn't have lived in Bristol which was the main alternative offered (one offer in Theology and invite to apply for Social Policy) ) but had I truly realised the standards of the Uni I ended up in I may well have opted to commute.

Still, I am first in my family to graduate and in the subject I now study it's a strong university (ASD). And as I may well end up self employed it won't be an issue anyhow.

Many job offers graduates receive are contingent on them receiving a 2i. If they end up getting a 2ii they lose their contract.

"Certainly becoming a barrister is pretty much impossible unless you have parents with money. First degree/law degree followed by conversion or at least BVC (fees £14k or something mad, no scholarships), finding a pupillage only possible if you are brilliant and/or with connections"

secunda this isn't entirely true. They don't need connections like they used to and many chambers work hard to be more inclusive. There are also scholarships offered that cover a lot of this.

It is hard, yes, and they do need to be very good academically but I know plenty of people who've become/are becoming barristers and don't have wealthy parents. It certainly helps, but the lack of them doesn't mean they won't succeed.

I think to be a barrister a relationship with one of the Inns is very helpful. It leads to useful things like work experience and interview tips.

Not impossible without it, I'll grant you, but still a lot easier even if it's no longer 'oh you know Hetherington-Smythe, well, welcome to 5 New Square then!'

In a university situation a 2.1 feels like the most important thing in life. It aint!

Sucess in life is more than school results. Lets face it universities are nothing more than glorified schools.

You aren't necessarily destined for the rubbish heap even if you leave school at 16. You just need to be hard working, flexible and able to think out of the box.

DH shared with me the delightful way in which they used to decide how people got job offers where he worked in the city. Less about the degree class and more about the university you went too. He said they only interviewed people in the top 20 unis in the country, and they were less bothered about degree class from these subjects.

The only way in which someone from a uni with not as high a ranking would get an interview would be if they got a degree in a hard subject (science, english, maths, history etc. Media studies not permitted).

I suppose they have to be able to come to a decision some how on who to interview etc, although I can't help thinking it seems a bit wrong to be discriminating according to uni.

rofling @ the "all inclusive" Bar. It is much easier to get a pupillage or then tenancy if you are "known" to the set of chambers. As the number of BVC and LPC graduates rises those connections become even more important because there are so many people chasing one vacancy.

I have a 2.2 (another 58% overall here), am the first and only one in my family to graduate, also from working class background with no real advice or role models to follow at the time.

Was married to an academic who is of the opinion that standards have lowered over the years therefore more 2.1s are issued. Don't know how the stats bear that out.

Also controversially that in certain subjects newer universities are better and more rigorous than old universities.

I also have an MSc taken part time whilst working.

I would like my dcs to go to university if they want to but can see it's going to get harder.

I really think it's a waste that bright less affluent kids will find it harder to go and that it's still the privelege and contacts that mainly help you get on in life.

Also, a degree is not just about the job possibilities it opens up, in my opinion (spot the philosophy graduate....). I loved my time at university, and 3 years studying something you are interested in is worth it in itself for some people. If someone enjoys their university experience, gets a 2.2, and doesn't regret the 3 years, who's to say it's a waste of time?
It's expensive in today's climate yes, (and is looking worse for when my dc reach university age) but most of us who've done Phds have spent 3 years or more on the expensive luxury of study which leads to reduced not enhanced financial prospects. It doesn't mean the study is worthless.

To become a barrister is relatively easy though expensive in terms of course fees. However you can't practise unless you have completed a pupillage ... which are like hens teeth at present ... and then you need to be offered tenancy ... yet another hurdle.
The Inns offer scholarships worth meaningful amounts of money and the better chambers offer their future pupils an advance on the sum they award for pupillage for the BVC year.
An "average" candidate would have a 1st from a top university(typically but not necessarily from Oxford/Cambridge)or at least a good 2.1 plus an extensive list of achievements as well as some experience of advocacy.

When I was at uni in the mid 80s, a first of 2:i were considered good degrees - definitely the pass mark to get into blue chip companies and their graduate recruitment jobs.

I think there is a big difference between degree subjects. For some of the less traditional subject, the degree classification is going to have to be higher.

When I was at uni, there was a very desirable degree called a 'sporting third' - meaning that you were attractive to prospective employers if you did lots of add-ns to the detriment of your academic studies. Not sure where this fits in now.