2:2 now not a 'good enough' degree?

[Cortina]

I saw a thread, earlier today, I think on AIBU. Someone was cruising for a 2:2 at Uni. They said that this wasn't enough to secure employment and many were agreeing.

In my day, insert old git icon , a 2:2, especially from a well regarded university, was a perfectly respectable degree.

Have things really changed so much?

You are using the experience of your one child; I am giving you a wider perspective.
I frankly don't care if that's how you feel about your son's achievements, but I think the stereotype that thing's are getting easier needs challenging.
They are different, not worse, not better. Students are going to university because they have worked hard and have the academic capability. To suggest anything else just smacks of intellectual snobbery.

"The point is, that to become either of those things, you need the entry-level qualifications."

Actually, you don't need any qualifications at all to be a managing director. Not even a 25 metre swimming badge.

I agree with Bolter about skills required in a marketing company. My experience was also that client experience that was strategically important to the agency was far more important than degree class, or even having a degree.

That isn't to say that good qualifications aren't valuable. It is just that in many fields your degree (and your O-levels and A-levels) cease to become of interest once you have work experience and/or more relevant qualifications, a bit like having a Duke of Edinburgh award.

clemette, I think you might be focusing too much on the content of tests in one subject.

The content of history GCSE may not have changed much, but I'm not sure how it could. However, subjects such as Maths and Physics are increasingly assessed so that they require more memorial work, and less problem-solving. That's not a problem, except insofar as it's not really what universities want It certainly isn't the same as what people did even quite recently before ASs came in.

amazed to hear that "the Modern World Study on Northern Ireland has been replaced by one on 9/11". That sounds like dumbing down to me.

Fair point LittleRedDragon, although I thought Posy's point was that they didn't need to memorise enough.

Perhaps there is a widening gap between the arts and the sciences at A level (possibly due to Double Science at GCSE?). But I still maintain that to achieve top marks in five A2s (which would involve arts and sciences) is not "easier".

FWIW I have no vested interest in this, my own GCSEs were 20 years ago, my own children are very small, and I have always felt proud of gaining two higher degrees. But it doesn't make me resentful of younger people who are able to do the same. I just sense there are some posters here who appear to feel threatened or undermined by those who achieve as much as them without seeming to be "deserving".

Why claig? It involves the history of Arab-Western conflict throughout the twentieth century, detailed understanding of the Israeli issue, an understanding of the psyche of terrorists, a study of the American Presidential system, and an understanding of British foreign policy.

I'd say that was not bad for a fifteen year old.

there are lots of people who are worried about the decline in standards, even a few academics amongst them. It is not because they feel threatened, rather it is because it is harming the country and devaluing qualifications across the board, which is why questions auch as "2:2 now not good enough?" are increasingly being asked. A far higher proportion of students now achieve 'A' grades than was the case 30 years ago. They have even had to create new grades such as A* to compensate for the fact that 'A' grades have been devalued.

good point that covers a lot of topics, but to give it the title of 9/11 smacks of tabloidese.

I understand Clemette. I'm in a similar position - my school grades are no longer relevant and I don't have children to worry about. I just feel cross for the students I know, some of whom have worked very hard only to find that rote learning, though time-consuming, isn't a very valuable skill to many employers.

It is actually called "the War on Terror" which is even worse...

While I acknowledge your point, there are also academics (including those on here) who don't agree that standards are falling. I mentioned much earlier in the thread that st
udents are much better at doing exams (I also acknowledged that this didn't mean that they were cleverer, but pointed out that it doesn't necessarily follow that "we" were any cleverer for jumping through the hoops that the exam system had in place for us many years ago).

I don't agree that more people getting degrees is harming the country. I also don't believe that it is devaluing qualifications, because the experience of learning has it's own value beyond getting a job. That's what we need to be honest with students about - going to university is not a sure fire way of getting a job (not that it ever was, ask history graduates through the years...)

sounds like Bush writes the history syllabus.
Gordon Brown and the Labour shadow cabinet think that standards aren't declining, just as they thought our finances were in order until they were kicked out and left a note saying "I'm afraid to tell you there's no money left". Fortunately we now have Gove in charge and I think that there will be changes. Many exams are now modular and have coursework elements, which makes them easier to pass than the old exams as described by PosyPetrovaPauline.

I am in favour of people taking degrees but the standards should be rigorous. If 2:2 degrees are no longer regarded as being good enough then many students are being cheated by a system that has devalued what was once good enough.

Claig, more people are going to university, having achieved the grades that are approved by non-governmental exam boards, and the standards are rigorous. What is happening is that more people have the opportunity (these young people were always able enough, but often had to leave school at 16 because their parents couldn't support them for another two years - EMA has helped that) and so more people are getting degrees. There aren't the jobs for every graduate (not that there ever was) but their degrees are still as valid.

PS GCSE coursework is now being phased out in most subjects, or at least coursework that can be done at home (too many middle class parents were doing it for their children .. .and no doubt complaining about falling standards at the same time).

yes thank the Lord, coursework will slowly go the way of the dinosaurs and reason will be restored. The academics on these non-governmental exam boards who introduced it will no longer be approved and will be shown the door. If the Tories stay in power long enough, I think we will see standards rise from their current level and hard-working students will no longer need to worry about 2:2 degrees not being good enough, because 2:2s will once again be considered OK, as fewer students receive firsts and 2:1s.

Indeed, bah to coursework, that innovation of the last Tory government. Best not to give students a chance to show their ability in any other way than timed "how much can you remember and write really quickly" tests of "intelligence". Let's return to the days when we thought there was only one measure of how able a young person was. Let's stop the many capable students from going to university and excelling there, because there aren't enough jobs (we can carry on blaming the last government or we could look at the bankers, most of who didn't go to university and STILL managed to cripple the nation's economy).

Enough for me - I'm off to bed feeling a bit disgruntled.

clement i actually have 6 children - 5 in education
3 secondary

i have a LOT of interest in education and that of my dcs and their peers

my three best friends are teachers and i have many more teacher friends

oddly my teacher friends support my view of easier A and gcses

I think most of the bankers did go to university. They don't hire these derivative wheelers and dealers on astronomical salaries unless they have the right grade from the right institution. Maybe they took some of these dumbed down degrees or maybe Gordon Brown and the regulators did?

i do agree with you about coursework clement

Agree with clemet. Intelligence is more than exams can test.

School examinations and university degrees are not (just) a test of general intelligence. They are a test of the acquisition of skills.

It is just not enough to educate our DCs to maximise their intelligence. They need good, solid, practical skills.

agree with Bonsoir, school examinations and university degrees do not test for intelligence, they are not simple abstract IQ tests. They test for knowledge, to see that the knowledge that has been acquired can be applied and presented under the pressure of time constraints.

A test of knowledge and a test of skills is not the same thing, though.

What we all really, really need in our fast-changing world are heaps of useful, transferable and/or easily updateable skills. Knowledge is all very well, but the facts I was taught in, say, biology, at school are no longer very relevant.

[doddery old crone emoticon]

yes but I think that knowledge is more than just facts. The knowledge required to solve quadratic equations is not factual. You need to understand the concepts and apply a method. I think that mathematics testing is more about understanding and knowledge than skills. In a subject like history, essay writing skills are important, but I think that they are subsidiary to the understanding and knowledge gained by studying events and motivations of the different parties involved in events.

Coursework as it stands is on the way out in some subjects, in English it is being replaced by supervised assignments written in school etc. Coursework as it was was being abused, too easy to cheat/have help.

I wouldn't think that the facts about menstruation, sex and the human body have changed that much Bonsoir, even if you are an old crone, and I would argue that they are still relevant.

The new GCSE RE syllabus is easier for one exam board, it says on the preamble to the guide to the new spec 'we have taken out the topics the students said they found difficult'! All the most interesting parts have now gone, to be replaced by propaganda from the last government on community cohesion.

Really, scaryteacher? You must be a lot younger than me!