part time teachers HELP with parents evenings on days OFF

[GordianKnot]

ok so i do three days
parents eve always on day off
dont mind dointg EXAM classes at all, but in KS3 is complusory subject so its tough titty really.
so i said " are you goign to pay me or not expect me in"

teh solution they propose is that my LOVELY HoD reads out what i write down

dont know what do do

tethersend:'I don't agree that part timers 'make themselves undesirable' by virtue of working the days they are paid for; frankly, I find your attitude a little worrying, especially as a deputy head. Once upon a time women of childbearing age were 'undesirable'- still are in some sectors. Would you also put the responsibility onto them not to have children or would you campaign for change?'

totally disingenuous argument. Once upon a time women were barred from certain professions. Or allowed to work only until they married. No one is arguing that we want a return to that. Part time working is not the same thing at all. If someone chooses to work part time, fine, just accept that if it's in a profession where everyone does over and above their 'directed hours' then why should you be any different? If you want to clock on and clock off, then get a checkout job at the local supermarket - full time or part time. If you are a professional, your responsibilities go beyond that. If part timers really feel so hard done by, and that they're taken advantage of, then you have to ask why they are choosing to work part time in the first place!

An outstanding childminder, DinahRod!

That & getting in early. I arrive shortly after 7, so I get an hour marking in before the day starts. Dh does dropping off at CM - he's sufficiently senior in his job to have very flexible hours . Although he's often working away which buggers my early start - he's been away 3 days a week for the last month & frankly it's been hellish.

The rest of the marking gets done in a mammoth session on Sunday morning - dh & dc despatched to park/cinema. That is a bit of a low point tbh; I barely see the dc all week because I leave the house before they're up, so I do resent missing out on family stuff on Sunday.

During the week, once the dc are in bed I do another couple of hours, but I try to make that planning & resources - I get bored marking when I'm tired.

Oh & I save mammoth tasks like new schemes of work/marking 30 lots of 10 page top set coursework for the holidays, so for example I'm timing my year 10s to be handing in their Original Writing for Easter!

I do think it's do-able once you've resigned yourself to less sleep & only being a 'proper' mummy in the holidays. I've seen too many colleagues go pt & suddenly end up with split classes, no teaching base, & decisions made in their absence because they constantly miss meetings.

It's just not a very pt friendly profession, IMO.

It does make me laugh when people gaily announce that they fancy taking up teaching because they'd like something family-friendly & not too demanding to keep them from getting too bored before they return to being a Captain of Industry once the kids are older...

I agree ravenK.

I don't think teaching is a particularly family friendly profession. The holidays are nice, but IME the day to day hours are longer than many other jobs - I have friends in other jobs who can roll up in the office at ten to nine which is unheard of in teaching - more like ten to eight.

I also agree that it doesn't lend itself particularly well to part time, when it means split classes etc. It's do-able, but often involves a lot of compromise.

"If part timers really feel so hard done by, and that they're taken advantage of, then you have to ask why they are choosing to work part time in the first place!"

Substitute the words 'part timers' for the words 'women' and imagine that as an argument against equal pay circa 1973.

It's not disingenuous to suggest that your argument follows the same logic.

"just accept that if it's in a profession where everyone does over and above their 'directed hours' then why should you be any different?"

It's not about me being any different, and it's curiously childish of you to see it this way. It's about a whole cohort of teachers not being required to work a day which they do not normally do. Which they are not.

If everyone at work was being seriously injured, would you just accept it as part and parcel of the job? After all, why should you be any different? You could always go and get a job on a checkout

Of course not. You would campaign, as others have done throughout history for better working conditions. Had everyone adopted your way of thinking, there would be no minimum wage, no health and safety and no paid leave entitlement.

Would you would be happy to take every INSET day unpaid? If not, then why not?

I think your suggestion to substitute the words 'part timers' for 'women' speaks volumes.
Women are born women. They do not have a choice in the matter. Part time working is a choice. There is nothing to stop women from working full time, or men from working part time. I am absolutely in favour of health and safety regulations, minimum wage etc.I just don't see this as a gender issue - unless people choose to make it into one. I just think there needs to be honesty about the pros and cons of working part time. And if you choose to work part time in a profession which is based around full time hours, then I think that if this creates disadvantages for the employer, the ultimate consequence of that is that part time working will be harder to acquire, which is a shame for those who want it. That's all. I am quite happy working full time, but if it were imortant to me be only part time, then I think it would be in my interests to keep myself marketable and valuable to my employer. Actually if you've got any sense you feel like that if you're full time as well! It's not about being exploited, it's about ensuring your contribution is valued.

tbh this thread has really made me think; it's not often I change my mind but tethersend you are v persuasive.

RavenAk, that sounds vaguely manageable! Dh knows something would have to give if I returned f/t and probably a house move closer to work. Do you have home-help in some guise?

EvilTwins, thanks for the comment re dh. Without wanting to boast, he just is one of those natural teachers who gets cracking grades from students who aren't expected to achieve; they're pussycats for him. He's had to dissuade a pair of students from shoplifting him a present as a thank you.

violethill, I use the gender example to highlight the flaws in your line of thinking- not to make the issue of part timers a gender issue

"And if you choose to work part time in a profession which is based around full time hours, then I think that if this creates disadvantages for the employer, the ultimate consequence of that is that part time working will be harder to acquire, which is a shame for those who want it."

A part timer in any job by definition works part time in a profession which is based around full time hours. Otherwise they would be called 'full timers'.

Paid leave creates disadvantages for the employer, yet it is now an entitlement for all. Would you really tell those who campaigned for it that they should have been 'making themselves more marketable and valuable to their employer'? Or that they were choosing to work, so had no right to paid time off?

"It's not about being exploited, it's about ensuring your contribution is valued."

The two are not mutually exclusive, you know...

Please tell me if you would be prepared to work all INSET days unpaid.

EvilTwins, I thought it was you- there can't be that many teachers with twins on MN

And actually paying to work non-paid, if you also need to find ad hoc childcare for inset days.

No, I wouldn't be prepared to work all INSET days unpaid. Which is why I work full time!

TBH I would have a dilemna if I chose to work only part time in teaching, and assumed that I would just miss important INSET. As someone else said, if you're working 80% of the time, you don't just need 80% of the information. Take an issue like child protection. Every teacher needs to know all the information on that issue, whether they're in five days a week or two and a half days a week. You can't get by on half the information on child protection just because you only teach half the time!

It's a real problem for schools - and in many other professions too I expect.

Not for my school, violethill- they just pay us part timers to come in for INSET days, as per the burgundy book.

I really don't see why that is difficult.

"No, I wouldn't be prepared to work all INSET days unpaid. Which is why I work full time!"

I am relieved to hear this

So if a law was passed saying that all INSET days must be worked without pay because that is what you are supposed to do as a professional, you would fight that? Do you see where I am going with this?

I think the Child Protection / inset argument is a bit of a red herring tbh.

For part time workers, they must complete the appropriate proportion of inset. So if they only work 40%, they do 40% inset. So the answer is simple - the part time has just got to prioritise the inset they do. Surely, a good and organised head will know when the child protection is due (given that most schools get someone in to update all staff at the same time), for example, and just needs to tell the appropriate part timer that they've got to ensure that they leave enough time for their child protection training etc later on in the year.

Simples!

I have never had a whole school inset day based on child protection and if I needed to know that info I would just find out or my very experienced, supportive and flexible HOD would fill me in with the relevent info I needed to know. (can you tell I was part time for a while) Most teachers who decide to go part time usually have a wealth of experience behind them and only need top ups to keep their training up to date.

To be honest most insets are a waste of time and when you have sat through them for nearly 15 years you tend to realise that you have heard it all before. I LOVE the first day back when you have to sit through 2 hours of analysis of GCSE results (not) same old year on year out.

I have just been on my CAF training but that is because I am a HOH and you have to have the training to fill out the forms.

Teachers without responsibilty do not do this.

Child protection training is a very weak argument to suggest part time teachers must complete all inset days.

The burgundy book has changed recently, Ellokitty- part timers cannot now be compelled to attend INSET on a day they do not normally work- they can by arrangement, but they are entitled to be paid. There are formulae and everything

Personally, I love being told how to teach every September, especially when the new and exciting approaches to learning come full circle; about every six years it seems...

I'm not willing to disadvantage my own child by working every hour that god sends, as seems to be suggested on here. I work bloody hard, and I'm good at my job, and that's enough. I don't need to be a weekend-martyr to prove that to anyone.
We really are our own worst enemies, aren't we.

Ah yes tethersend, that vital, annual 1st September INSET day...bring your own grandmother & egg .

I do think there's ways in which teaching could & should work for part time teachers; unfortunately, in core subjects at least, the timetabling inevitably becomes a huge issue - so you end up with the dreaded split class.

A couple of years ago we'd just acquired an AST, & she & I were to teach a split year 7 class, starting with a scheme of work I'd written.

I colour-coded 'chunks' of it ('my bits, your bits, spare bits for whoever finishes their bits first') & it worked rather well. I know I bang on about APP, but once you start matching assessment focuses to tasks you can actually divvy up a syllabus quite nicely.

So it's not covering the syllabus which makes working part time problematic - we have to juggle full time colleagues with part time teaching loads anyway (SLG, ASTs etc). It's more that IME as soon as a mainscale teacher goes pt, she (it usually seems to be she) ends up lumbered with one lesson per week for a dozen keystage 3 classes - basically, playing catch up in the wake of their 'proper' teacher - which is invariably how the kids see it.

Not sure what the answer is.

I think this heard-it-all-before cynicism something that I don't like about the teaching profession. It really shocked me when I first started, and in many of the teaching jobs I have had. I think it can drag the whole staff down, and it's really not fair on the younger members of staff.

I am glad I am in a school where this doesn't really exist.

Lots of interesting discussion and good to see tethersend still patiently stating the facts, even though some still choosing to ignore it.

Raven- I teach a core subject and with some clever timetabling I don't have any 'split' classes. I suppose the closest is someone covers one of my year 10 lessons on my day off. However, since I teach them the other 8 times a fortnight I certainly feel like their proper teacher, especially since I do all the assessment and reporting.
What you have said about full-time staff with part-time teaching loads is absolutely true also and a very good point

Iggi- I totally understand, whilst my DC's are young they are the most important thing for me. I think if I had stayed full-time I would have been cutting too many corners at work and students would have been disadvantaged. So although its not ideal its a compromise. I have a few 'blank' afternoons that I find invaluable, as instead of going home I stay at work and finish prep,marking, letters, phonecalls and anything else I would normally take home. Leaving my weekends free to enjoy the DC's, yay!

Mmeblueberry- lets see how many people feel like this after a change of government? Or do you work in the independent sector?

Oh, forgot to add, that when I was FT I often got spilt classes as they tried to fill everyones timetable up to the maximum. Now its a bit more flexible so my proportion of time can be slightly more or less each year (with my consent obviously!).

I still think some questions are being ignored.

The split classes is, I agree, a far bigger issue than INSET,or parents evenings, which are actually a fairly small proportion of time overall.

If a teacher of a core subject teaches a class for 8 of their lessons over a fortnight, and then someone else covers them on the teacher's day off, then I wouldn't want to be the person covering. It's a mugs game. You never feel you have ownership of the class, they are likely to achieve less in that lesson etc. Not fair on the pupils or the other member of staff.

And even though it's a lesser issue, what about INSET which is essential? Let's say you have two teachers jobsharing, one does 3 days and one does 2 days. What do you do when essential training falls on one person's day off? And to say something like child protection isn't usually given a whole day's INSET is missing the point - even if it's two hours, it's still going to happen on one person's day off. So what should the school do? Why should the school be disadvantaged by having to pay the person to come in on their day off? Money which would otherwise be spent on other things? The school would be directly disadvantaged by having two people sharing a job rather than one person, who will attend all INSET without needing to be paid extra. According to Tethersend, the argument here is that the school shouldn't agree to jobsharing in the first place. Well, that's fine, except you'd then have thousands of people who don't want to work full time, up in arms complaining about the school being unfair!

Do you see the point here? In very many cases, part time working is for the benefit of the employee, not the employer. And if people want to work part time, it's therefore in their interests to make it viable.

In cases where it's actually in the school's interest to employ a part timer, eg if there are only 3 days teaching needed in a certain subject, then I entirely agree, the employee should be paid for anything outside those days. But IME, and certainly in the schools I've worked in, the majority of part timers are job sharers or have negotiated a part time deal because it's what they want.

The argument about INSET being a waste of time is a total red herring. Yes, I've sat through my share of poor INSET, and that's a waste of time for everyone, whether full or part time. Where INSET is informative, expanding a person's skills and knowledge, or essential, then that's equally applicable to full or part timers.

At the end of the day, you don't do half of a PGCE just because you're going to teach half time! You need to same set of knowledge and skills!

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