part time teachers HELP with parents evenings on days OFF

[GordianKnot]

ok so i do three days
parents eve always on day off
dont mind dointg EXAM classes at all, but in KS3 is complusory subject so its tough titty really.
so i said " are you goign to pay me or not expect me in"

teh solution they propose is that my LOVELY HoD reads out what i write down

dont know what do do

Can I just point out that some teachers are part time becasue those are the hours available for that subject. When dh was on a 0.6 he had two other jobs as well on a freelance basis.

He could not attend things on his days or evenings off paid or unpaid becasue of this.

That's exactly the point I made at the end of my long post just now islandofsodor.

In my school we have a couple of posts like this - where the school has advertised for a 0.6 post, for example, because that's all the teaching available in a particular subject. It's entirely reasonable in those situations that the post holder may have other employmnent too.

However, these are the exceptions IME. Most part timers where I work are job sharing, and have requested part time work rather than the other way around. I think these are the situations where there needs to be give and take, or you'll end up with employers turning down requests for flexible working because they can see that it will disadvantage the workplace/clients/pupils/other staff.

Violet- a couple of points if I may

firstly, the teacher that 'covers' my odd lesson, perhaps this was an unfortunate turn of phrase. He is a qualified, experienced science teacher and this lesson is part of his timetable. i know for a fact he enjoys teaching the gropu and would much rather have one lesson a fortnight with my guys than a random ICT, citizenship or whatever else they usually use to fill up FT teacher's timetables with. It is also great for the class to have a different voice/point of view every so often. He has expertise in other specialist area also so has greatly assisted me with some of the physica that I hadn't taught for a few years. So 'mugs game' I think is a bit of a blinkered view.

Secondly on the subject of INSET, I have always attended important inset sessions. This year an INSET in January occured on what was normally my half day so I dutifully booked the DC's in for some extra hours in order to attend. My lovely head came to see me to state that they could reimburse me for the extra childcare cost (which I hadn't asked for, before anyone moans about that!). Lovely, but certainly not what seems to be experienced by many on here. I think some schools realise that this is more cost effective than paying for the teacher to attend the INSET on an official teaching day, incurring the cost of a day's supply and the student's missing valuable time with their teacher. Any Twilight sessions (which my school has scrapped BTW as they were seen as a waste of time where little was achieved) I missed I always caught up in my own time.

You see, I think most people's issue is NOT the time, teachers are always giving up extra time, it is having to pay extra to go to work and not get paid.

Islandofsodor- i think several people hqave mentioned teachers having other jobs on their days off as earlier, but it is another really good point that will no doubt be ignored or glossed over

Apologies for horrendous typing, 14mth old DS very interested in the keyboard.

Hope everyone has a great weekend and not too much work to do

PattheHammer - your first paragraph paints a rather different picture than the one you described before, where a teacher was covering a once a fortnight class which you still had 'ownership' of.

That's great that the teacher in question really enjoys having the class, but the fact is, that isn't always the case. I've seen many classes with this 'fill in' situation, where another teacher sees them once a week or once a fortnight and it's not great. Nothing to do with the quality of the teacher, or their commitment, but simply the fact that seeing a class once a fortnight can make it really hard to establish a relationship and feel a sense of ownership, and progression. It's all very well to paint a rosy picture to justify a person having a day off (and I'm not doubting your specific situation - if you say it works fine, then all well and good). But often it doesn't. It's not fair on the pupils or on the teacher who has to cover them.

As for the last point - it's not been ignored or glossed over at all! I responded to it just now. If a school wants to employ someone for only a part time contract, then the school has no right to dictate whether they work somewhere else on their days off. And in the part timer is asked to work on days off and is available, then of course they should be paid.

But as I said, most part timers I know want to work part time only, and have requested it, and in some cases the school has gone out of its way to accommodate this, and in these situations I think part time workers are shooting themselves in the foot if their being part time is then creating complications for the school, pupils or other colleagues, and the end result of that is that schools will become less willing to consider part timers in the first place.

violethill, just to clarify- which part of the legislation do you object to?

Is it that part time teachers cannot be required to come in on days off? Or the part about them getting paid?

You have said yourself that you would not work on an INSET day for free.

You seem to be focusing on the notion that teaching does not lend itself to part time working, so part timers had best not rock the boat, otherwise they will find themselves out of a job. That view is reminiscent of a 19th century mill owner.

You seem to see working part time as a privilege- it's bizarre.

By its very definition, part time work is a proportion of full time work. Are you really saying that if a job- any job- is full time, it cannot be done by two or more part time workers? Or are you just saying that teachers cannot be good teachers if they are part time? Because there is a lot of evidence on this thread which indicates that this is simply not the case.

Why doesn't your stand-in just have ownership for that part of the syllabus and do the full job? Nothing to do with this topic, but seems weird to have a 'supply' situation, where you are using a regular member of staff and a subject specialist to boot!

I have to share a class with one of my colleagues purely because of timetabling and the fact that my colleague is part-time. We each take a part of the syllabus and teach it independently. I am rather thinking how cosy it would be if she planned my lessons, did all the marking, and then the full share of reporting.

I wish you would give the feminist up-the-union line a rest, tethersend. I am getting to the end of my tether reading your posts on this thread, and the one about the posh tramps.

I was never one for feminism. I am too much of a pragmatist, and one that sees the big picture (imv, fwiw).

ROFL laughing at the image of a 19th century mill owner! I think you're going into the realms of rhetoric here tethersend!

Also the notion that part time working is a privilege! Weird. I personally prefer to work full time, but it's clear that some people don't - it's got nothing to do with 'privilege', it's just simple economics that if part timers are more problematic to the employer, then employers will be less likely to employ part timers, which backfires on those who want it.

Re: the burgundy book. Let's suppose you have a situation where someone teaches 0.8, and has a Weds off. The school always has parents evenings on a Weds. Is it really reasonable that the part timer never does any parents evenings? Or does them all but gets paid for every one, whereas someone working full time gets no extra pay? Isn't it more reasonable for the part timer to work pro rata?

And don't suggest the school fits parents evenings around part timers - most large secondary schools have a set day of the week for parents evenings, as they run such a complex calendar. Also, a school cannot possibly give all part timers the same day off each week, otherwise the school would be over staffed some days and understaffed on others - because the pupils are there 5 days a week!!

The other weird notion, violet, is the one where some people have said to have parents' evenings on the days when all part-timers are in, or to set a day when all part-timers will be in.

Surely this is not possible? In primary, certainly not, and not really feasible in secondary either with timetable and space considerations.

I don't think part-time is great for students. For some, it is fine, obviously, but you can end up with really poor timetabling. This can mean that students can have all their lessons for that subject squashed into a short space of time. It can mean inappropriate double or even triple lessons. I'm not a timetabler, but I imagine that it can be a bit of a nightmare for them.

We had a situation a couple of years ago where one of our teachers worked just Thursday and Friday at our school, and taught a high load of sixth form. They had their 8 lessons a week squashed into two days. If they encountered a problem after the Friday lesson, they had to wait until the following Thursday to get it sorted. Even if this kind of quirky timetabling happened to a full-time teacher, they could at least be consulted on the Monday or Tuesday rather than have the student be at a loss for almost a whole week.

MmeBlueberry, I have held back... if you want to make this personal by bringing in other threads, it weakens your argument quite considerably.

You voted with your feet and chose to teach in the private sector. This speaks volumes.

You will understand if your views on feminism do not shake me to my very core.

I suppose I should be flattered that I have made such an impression on you- I have never noticed you before.

Hide the thread or argue your point.

MmeBlueberry- Not sure what subject you teach but in Science it is better to have a subject specialist take an 'odd' lesson a fortnight or else the class cannot do any practical with a teacher who is not qualified in those aspects of health and safety.
He is not a 'stand in' or 'supply' they are his class too and it is a timetabled lesson for him.Also I do not plan his lessons, simply tell him where we are going to be in advance. This year he has used the lessons to cover the ISA (investigative skills assessment that has replaced coursework). We are too constricted by modular exams to teach discrete areas of the syllabus I'm afraid. He is marking these investigations therefore I don't do ALL his marking but I'm not sure about making him write 1/9th of my reports for me.................now that does seem jobsworthy

Anyone involved in timetabling will tell you that it is a nightmare full-stop, regardless of whether you have just full-time members of staff or not (especially as management/AST's etc are, quite rightly, entitled to extra non-contact time to carry out their extra duties, some of which must be on a fixed day).

Lastly, do your students not have access to email? If a teacher or student needs to contact me on my day off then they do so via the school email, which I can access at home. Surely the said teacher must have felt out of the loop if they were nearly a week behind on all happenings in the school?

Agree it is ridiculous to suggest all part-timers have same day off or are specifically in on one day a week. This would no way work in all schools for various reasons and is dependent on the size of school and number of PT staff.

violethill, if the school has parents evenings on a Wednesday, then they should ensure that part timers work that day when they are timetabling. Very few a part timers decide which days they work.

"Re: the burgundy book. Let's suppose you have a situation where someone teaches 0.8, and has a Weds off. The school always has parents evenings on a Weds. Is it really reasonable that the part timer never does any parents evenings? Or does them all but gets paid for every one, whereas someone working full time gets no extra pay? Isn't it more reasonable for the part timer to work pro rata?"

Thankfully, it matters not what you deem to be reasonable. The burgundy book clearly states that part timers would need to be paid if they agree to attend parents' evenings in such a situation.

So no, I do not think it is reasonable for a part timer to work pro rata in this situation. And neither does the legislation.

"it's just simple economics that if part timers are more problematic to the employer, then employers will be less likely to employ part timers, which backfires on those who want it."

Hence the need for legislation.

You are quite happy to enjoy the perks of legislation such as paid holiday and maternity leave yet question the need for it here.

BTW violethill, you argue well and I am enjoying this debate.

Mmeblueberry, you will understand if I don't feel exactly the same wrt your posts.

I think in science sharing classes can work quite well, as you can take a chunk each. It's working for me, anyway - I can give my sharer all the physics to do! (We are both full time, but the vagaries of the timetable mean that we share a class).

I do feel that I have argued my point.

I do not like sneering at successful teachers (whether their willingness to have creative lessons or work out of hours).

I am a team player and do not clock watch.

I have no idea what a burgundy book is, and I am quite thankful for my level of ignorance on that matter.

I have come into teaching from industry and that has shaped many of my views, especially to those of demarcation and clock-watching.

And I am not a feminist or unionist

Mitochondria,

I share a class with a colleague too. I do all the physics and half the chemistry, she does all the biology and the other half of the chemistry.

We know our responsibilities up front and get to teach what interests us. When we set up the arrangement, we agreed that we would teach completely independtly rather than tell the other which point we had got up to. It is easier for the students too.

The only synergy is in reports, we share that load. They only get one Science report. My colleague wrote the first lot, me the second, and we will share the third lot. For parents' meetings (three a year), we tell the students to make an appointment with just one of us - their choice.

It would be handy if people all just said things like "I'm not a feminist or a unionist" at the start of their posts, then I could skip them (or read out of curiosity I suppose).

she comes from INDUSTRY you know
some of us always wanted to be teachers.

Which makes you superior in some way?

I didn't always want to be a teacher. In fact I actively tried to avoid it (coming from a family of teachers). It got me in the end though.

Coming into teaching with life experience is a good thing for the school and consequently for the students. It is good to have some young teachers, but on the whole, I think older ones are better. As with any school, a mix is important.

Industry is good and very sought after by schools.

tethersend - I completely understand your argument about the legislation - my argument is simply that the legislation does not resolve all the problems which part time working throws up.

The situation I described is a prime example. A 0.8 teacher, ie; one working 4 days a week, which is the majority of the time, could, in theory, never do a parents evening if it fell on their day off. Or if they do attend, they would be paid for several hours work each time, while someone working five days a week would get no extra pay? The legislation dictates that the part timer does not have to work pro rata - therefore, in theory, they can get away without having to do the equivalent, scaled down version of what a full timer does. And yet you said yourself that a part time job is 'part of the full time job'. Not a job which totally leaves out whole aspects such as parents evenings!

As I said earlier, I actually think parents evenings and INSET are the lesser problems, as usually in reality teachers see sense and realise it's in their best interests to do what needs doing professionally. I think split classes and the problems thrown up with timetabling are a far greater issue. Thankfully I have always managed to avoid writing the timetable in schools I've worked in, but yes, it's a nightmare, and one made far more complex by part time working which benefits the employee but not the school.

My point about economics is simple market forces. If the school is considering a part time post for the benefit of the teacher, then it really is in the best interests of the teacher to make it viable. Teaching is increasingly becoming an attractive option since the country has been in recession. My school regularly gets 30 or more applications for posts where a few years ago we'd have had maybe 5. There is soon going to be a situation where if a part timer is being inflexible, the school will simply appoint full timers, and I think this will backfire hugely on people who for whatever reason only want to work part time.

As I've reiterated several times, the situation where the employer wants someone to work only part time is quite different. The employee can then quite reasonably work in another job, or expect payment for anything over and above.

P.S I really do totally understand the need for legislation, and the protection it affords. My argument is broader really. The legislation itself will cause things to backfire if it makes part time working more costly to the school, or problematic for pupils and colleagues. At the end of the day, employers will get around the legislation by not agreeing to part time workers

I wonder where legislation comes into it when a prospective employee makes all sorts of promises in their interview.

Perhaps it is not the same in the state sector, but I made all sorts of commitments to do extra curricular activities and generally support the full life of the school.

If I were a state school teacher, should I be going cap in hand to the bursar asking for more money?