part time teachers HELP with parents evenings on days OFF

[GordianKnot]

ok so i do three days
parents eve always on day off
dont mind dointg EXAM classes at all, but in KS3 is complusory subject so its tough titty really.
so i said " are you goign to pay me or not expect me in"

teh solution they propose is that my LOVELY HoD reads out what i write down

dont know what do do

I am genuinely surprised that people are paid for parents evenings and INSETS, I taught part time for 2 years - at the schools request not mine and in that time taught extra days, went on trips, attended INSET, ran holiday revision and parents evenings and was never once paid. I am not surprised in a pissed off I want to be paid kind of way. But in a sense that as a part time teacher I had a responsibility to those classes and fulfilling that responsibilty was what I was paid for. Why get paid extra just for parents evenings and INSET, why not get paid for having to mark and plan on a Sunday.

I suppose though if you are allowed to get paid for it people will claim it.

I do find some aspects of teachers pay and conditions very odd. Threshold for example I have never applied for as it seems bizarre that I waste time that should be spent on my pupils filling in forms saying how fab I am. I have come close to applying - we nearly financially went under as a family last year.

MmeBlueberry, if I weren't losing the will to live, this would be hilarious.

Think outside of teaching for a moment- activism does not refer specifically to teaching.

What exactly is it that you would have 'got on with regardless'? Child bearing? Factory work? Service?

They would have been your only options. Forget the world of science.

Without activism, your life would be very different, and I am trying to get you to see that you benefit from activism every day, even 'in industry'. If you choose to ignore that fact, fine, but it is still a fact.

In much the same way, if you choose to eschew your own hard won rights (why inverted commas?), don't expect others to follow your example.

BTW, clients? Who exactly do you mean?

wastwinset, I assume you're on the leadership spine now? The Threshold application process has changed this year, and now focuses on your PM targets/reviews, so the form is completely different.

I am quite worried about you not wanting to spend time filling out a form though- "waste time that should be spent on your pupils?" Really? You could extend that logic to anything... even MN

There really is no virtue in knowing you are entitled to be paid for something and doing it for free. Martyrs don't make the best teachers by their very martyrdom

lifeissweet, I think I love you

I don't go through life being grovellingly thankful to my ancestors to the detriment of today's issues. They got on with their lives as they saw fit in those days. Being 'grateful' to them is not what they worked for and I imagine they would be turning in their graves if they thought we were doing so on any large scale.

The best thing I can do for the future generation is to teach them in the best way I can, and that is what I try to do. I do not cherrypick the parts of the job that I feel is important for me - I am doing it for my pupils and they need me to do the full job.

Those who fought for your rights didn't went above and beyond. Maybe that is the best lesson we can learn and try to do likewise.

It is working hard and doing extras that have given our family the choices we have today, not having DH work 37.5 hours per week and not a minute more (he's entitled after all as it is on his contract). He is a valued employee and so has been promoted several times because he does more than the minimum and feels responsible to do what it takes to make his company prosperous.

I am at a loss here. As the daughter of a (now retired) National Executive member of one of the major teaching unions, I was party to the hard-fought battles of the 80s and saw exactly how much work my parents put in to ensuring that teachers are respected by their bosses (headteachers, LEAs, government) and that their rights are protected. I find it incredibly disrespectful that posters on this thread feel the need to rubbish those efforts, whilst at the same time taking them totally for granted.

twinset - my opinion of you as a professional has plumetted to new depths with
"Threshold for example I have never applied for as it seems bizarre that I waste time that should be spent on my pupils filling in forms saying how fab I am."
For a start, if you are spending so much time "on your pupils" that you have no time at all to consider your own professional development, then you either have such low self esteem that you don't think that you are an important part of the equation (just in it for the kids - oh please) or your actually fairly incompetent - seriously - marking, planning and so on shouldn't take up so much of your time that you don't have time to do other, important things. Do you also refuse to attend feedback meetings after observations, or to attend your own performance management meetings? Would your response be "no, headteacher/line manager, I believe it is a waste of my time discussing with you how fab I am. I should be spending my time doing something for the children."
Odd.

oops. You're. Not Your

MmeBlueberry, you are being deliberately obtuse.

Nobody is asking you to be 'grovellingly thankful', just to acknowledge that activism has allowed you to have the career you want. A simple acknowledgement will do.

"It is working hard and doing extras that have given our family the choices we have today"

It is this plus hard-won rights which give your family choices.

Please, no more aimless talk about 'going above and beyond' and 'doing more than the bare minimum', as I think those points have been argued on this thread ad infinitum.

tethersend - I completely understand the importance of employment legislation. However, I think the broader issue here (which wasn't what the OP raised but which has kind of grown out of the thread!) is where the legislation could potentially backfire.

I think there is a huge difference between people who work part time because that is what their employer wants them to do, and people who work part time because it suits them. Most people in my school who are part time have actively sought to become part time teachers. It is a decision driven by them, not the employer (although of course the employer has to agree it). It's a tough call, because an employer has the right to turn down flexible working requests quite justifiably for a number of reasons - eg if it costs the employer more, or impacts unfavourably on clients or colleagues. If you have a situation where someone two people share a job, one working two days and one working three days, and the school ends up paying one person to come in for vital things on their day off - eg essential training, or a parent consultation, then their part time status is directly costing the school more. Likewise, if someone works 4 days a week and another teacher has to pick up the odd lesson's teaching, then it is impacting unfavourably on the colleague and the pupils. (I know someone earlier painted a rosy picture of filling in for the occasional lesson, but let's be honest here, it is rarely like that. Split classes can be horrendous, with no proper sense of ownership for the person teaching the occasional lessons, and a lack of continuity etc).

My point is simply that in situations where the employee wants to not work full time, then it's in their own interests to make it viable, because the upshot of problems is that employers will be less likely to agree to part time requests.

tethersend - you said earlier that I am looking at it from the employers point of view, whereas you are seeing it from the emplyees. I don't entirely agree. Yes, I am senior management, so I do see the whole school perspective, but I am also an employee and a mother, and actually I think this is about trying to see it from every angle, not least the pupils'. The school is there ultimately for the sake of the pupils, not to provide convenient jobs to suit the wishes of every individual. In reality, my school works very hard to try to be fair and reasonable, and we always consider requests for part time working through the proper channels - and actually give considerable time over and above to do this! I have sat in meetings until late in the evening, thereby not being with my own children, to consider the requests made by staff to reduce their working hours. This shouldn't be a 'them and us' mentality, it's about everybody treating eachother reasonably. Most of the staff where I work are parents - it's not just the part time minority. We have 96 teachers in my school, of whom 68 teach fulltime. As far as I am aware, around 70 of those teachers are parents. At the end of the day we have to be fair to everyone.

Thanks, Tethersend

I think she's on a wind up - surely has to be. Who's being grovellingly grateful?! I am merely pointing out that the people who have fought for employment rights in the past were correct to do so and have made untold improvements to our society. There are, however, still things that need addressing and this is one of them.

I am getting rather irritated by the constant banging on about extra work that is going on here. Teachers work long hours and go above and beyond. The work load is such that to only work in school hours (inc PPA) would mean doing half a job and no dedicated teacher would suggest otherwise. Part timers do the same. They will do evenings and weekends marking and preparing too because, I would suggest in nearly all cases, the teacher is part time because of other commitments, not to have a couple of days leisure time. This is NOT THE POINT.

I am dedicated to my work. I love my class and work hard for them. I don't clock watch or resent the extra things I do for them. That is not the point. I do, however, think it's in nobody's interest (and certainly not my own ds's) to flog yourself half to death and not ask to be paid properly for it.

Children in my care suffer when their parents do not have enough time for them. Society suffers when children are brought up without their parent's proper care and attention. For this reason, I am considering going part time. This is going to cost me dearly financially (single parent and all), but I feel it is important for my ds. I would hate to think that I will be even more financially disadvantaged by situations like the OPs. I refuse to say 'well it's a vocation so I just have to swallow it'. Sorry if that makes me lacking in dedication or a jobsworth.

BTW I agree that choosing not to go through the thresholds is just plain weird.

I know this year it has changed but in the past it did require me to fill in lots of forms. I just thought it was bizarre. The head knows if I am a good teacher or not, my line managers know what I have done. So why spend time collecting evidence and filling in endless forms. I am also not someone who is particularly motivated by money, that does not mean I am unprofessional it means I am different from you. As long as we are warm and fed my family don't need anything else. When we nearly lost everything last year my dp asked me to consider doing it, I didn't we coped.

I do consider my own professional development, I am doing a secnd degree which takes up a considerable amount of time. I also take my performance managment very seriously as it is a way for me to improve my teaching. I just objected to the whole threshold process and so chose not to take part. That does not make me incompetant it makes me opinionated and perhaps stubborn. I will admit to having a very uncomfortable relationship with money though.

The thought of me being a martyr teaching in a cushy school with long holidays and an above average wage is quite laughable.

"In reality, my school works very hard to try to be fair and reasonable, and we always consider requests for part time working through the proper channels - and actually give considerable time over and above to do this!"

Well done, Violet - that means you're doing what the law expects. Not just teaching "law", but employment law. You're not doing anything special.

You're towing the Senior Management line here, making out that allowing staff to go part time is doing them a massive favour, which you are tolerating at the expense of everyone else. I work part time. I do not feel that the school is doing me a favour. My school employs a number of part timers, and we simply MAKE IT WORK, without making part timers feel that they are taking the piss of being dealt an unnecessary favour.

IMO, you are making it an "us and them" situation with your constant insistence that part timers make things difficult and the insinuation that senior management, the students, and the rest of the staff are being held to ransome by selfish individuals who "work part time because it suits them"

violethill, meeting the needs of the staff does not necessarily mean you are not meeting the needs of the pupils.

Schools make a decision to retain a teacher part time or to advertise for a full-time replacement. The pupils' needs are paramount when making this decision.

"My point is simply that in situations where the employee wants to not work full time, then it's in their own interests to make it viable, because the upshot of problems is that employers will be less likely to agree to part time requests."

This mentality opens the door for part time workers to put up with anything just to maintain their own and others' part time status. I strongly disagree with this.

I think the crux of it is that you are seeing the education system as a free market economy, which it isn't.

I think we have argued the points in your last post over and over.

In my position refusing was not wierd I objected to it, I don't want to spend time filling in forms which could be spent either on the pupils or with my family or just on my own watching the world go by. I did not want the money.

Violethill, on the other hand, has a more reasonable argument and is not trying to be more worthy and a better-teacher-than-thou about the whole issue.

However, I think the idea that part time teachers are shooting themselves in the foot is also a little unfair. I think the parallels with maternity leave are justified here. It is legislated that people are entitled to maternity leave and this is protected to ensure that women of child bearing age are not discriminated against and receive their entitlement. To argue that part-time workers should not claim the pay that they are legally entitled to for extra hours is like saying 'ooh - I don't want to take maternity leave because it will stop people employing young women'. That is a view that some still hold, but that is on the wane. Part time teachers are not responsible for other people's attitudes. It is a change in mindset that is called for.

wastwinset, nobody said you were being unprofessional by not going through threshold; it was the 'time filling in a form that should be spent on my pupils' line which surprised us I think.

Disagreeing with the threshold process is completely different to not having the time to complete the form, and is your right. I do not think badly of you for disagreeing with it, quite the opposite, in fact.

I don't remember the threshold process being particularly difficult or time consuming. I was working with a very supportive Head at the time, and she worked with staff to ensure that the process was efficient and not too taxing. I feel that the move from MPS to UPS was not just about money, but about experience, and has allowed my career to progress. twinset - read your previous posts back. You really do come across as the worst kind of martyr.

Part time workers don't have to put up with anything any more than full time workers do! I know many part timers who are perfectly happy part time. If they weren't, they would work full time or change jobs.

EvilTwins - I am not towing any line. I have (patiently) pointed out that I am a mother, an employee, and senior management. This is about seeing it from all sides.

I also agree that meeting the needs of staff does not necessarily mean not meeting the needs of pupils. But sometimes it does. Sometimes, people wanting to work part time does impact unfavourably on the employer (because it will cost them more) and on the clients (in this case, pupils) and on other colleagues, who may end up with poor timetables directly as a result of fitting around part timers. That is a simple fact, and it's pointless trying to ignore it.

EvilTwins - you didn't read my post correctly. I am well aware that following legislation isn't 'anything special' - it's doing what is required of us. Spending hours in meetings (rather than being at home with my kids and husband!) trying to thrash out a way of accommodating a person's request to cut their hours, trying to see it from all angles and help them to make it viable - that isn't required by law. That's what I've done over and above, on more than one occasion, because believe it or not, I take my duty of care to staff seriously and try to see things from EVERYONE'S point of view.

Fwiw I made my threshold application last year (it was approved). It took an hour to put it together. I probably should have used this tome marking, planning or maybe just thinking lovingly about my students but then I am one of those lazy greedy part timers

chibi

Thanks Eviltwins you really do seem quite determined not to like me

I am not a martyr but I am not someone motivated by money or stuff. I do my job because I enjoy it, I would work for less money. Not because I am a martyr but because I really don't care about money. I am not a walkover by any means and have been at the forefront of industrial action when I have thought it matters both in my teaching career and my jobs previously. Again I work long hours not because I am a martyr but because I enjoy my job. I also suffer from insomnia so do not sleep very much. My days are at least 4 hours longer than everyone elses. That does mean I come across as quite mad. This morning I was up at 4 sewing and writing an essay!

From talking to colleagues I think our school expected more than others in terms of threshold. A number of us did not take part.

What I was asked to do would have taken more than an hour.

I have time set aside for work, time set aside for family and time for me. I try and keep to that.

twinset - your attitude is quite amazing.

I come across people like you sometimes and it makes me want to scream, because I don't think teaching is cushy and it makes me really cross when people go on about our long holidays and assume we finish work at 3.30pm. I had another career before teaching - and experience of a number of different industries (not the hard hat and goggles type ) - and I worked long hours and worked hard, but I can safely say I have never worked so hard or been paid so little for it as now. Yes, I am doing it because I love it and I would rather do this than anything else - otherwise I wouldn't be doing it, but there are serious problems with teacher workload and stress in the profession and that kind of 'stuff and nonsense. Stop complaining and get on with it' attitude really damages our ability to improve things.

violethill, by trying to see it from everyone's point of view, it is impossible to do any one side justice.

"Sometimes, people wanting to work part time does impact unfavourably on the employer (because it will cost them more) and on the clients (in this case, pupils) and on other colleagues, who may end up with poor timetables directly as a result of fitting around part timers. That is a simple fact, and it's pointless trying to ignore it."

Nobody is trying to ignore it- I'm just pointing out that were we to legislate in favour of the employer in order to avoid the situation you describe above, it would be far more detrimental to the employee than the current legislation is to the employer.