part time teachers HELP with parents evenings on days OFF

[GordianKnot]

ok so i do three days
parents eve always on day off
dont mind dointg EXAM classes at all, but in KS3 is complusory subject so its tough titty really.
so i said " are you goign to pay me or not expect me in"

teh solution they propose is that my LOVELY HoD reads out what i write down

dont know what do do

lifeissweet - I agree. Sorry, twinset - I know that I don't actually know you, but as I've said before, I don't think you're unique in your attitude, and I have worked with people like you, and I DO genuinely feel that you do our profession a disservice. You say you have been at the been "at the forefront of industrial action when I have thought it matters" - well, IMO, that is undermining the whole point of belonging to a union - you can't dip in and out when it suits you. It is part of your responsibility to support your colleagues. You are fully entitled to your own opinions about money of course, and how lovely for you that it doesn't have to be a motivation or consideration for you - most people I know do have to consider salary.

Your HT was at fault with the threshold stuff, by the sounds of it - Heads were not supposed to create barriers to applications by insisting on large amounts of work.

No school can have different/higher/whatever expectations for the threshold process- this is laid out in guidance by dcsf.

I have learned to value my labour, my self, and my work as a professional, because I have learned that if I don't, it is a signal to others that they don't need to respect or value me either.

Part of valuing my work means saying no, having limits, and working 'smart' rather than excessively.

Fwiw I have had my lessons judged as outstanding by my smt and by ofsted. My students reach their potential and frequently surprise themselves with what they can accomplish. However I believe none of this is worth it if it were to come at the expense of my family, my health or my sanity, and that means I set limits.

I think it is often thinly veiled misogyny at work here- in 'vocation' type jobs which tend to be female dominated there is the expectation that you should be doing it for love, and any thought of recompense is greedy and wrong. I can't think of any other professions where this is the case- sales people don't refuse comissions, lawyers don't refuse to bill, pilots don't fly out of the goodness of their hearts.

disagree tethersend. Part of living in a reasonable, civilised society, is precisely about seeing things from everybody's perspective and making reasonable, balanced, decisions. It is about justice. It won't always be about what might suit any one individual at any one time.

Working in education, I actually think that the needs of the pupils must come first. Therefore, poor timetabling which may affect their provision negatively should be avoided wherever possible. The needs of all employees then needs to be considered - no one employee is more important than another. eg if a person requests to work part time because they feel that working full time will be to the detriment of their own family, then that request needs to be considered properly and lawfully. If agreeing to that request means that a full time colleage is going to end up with crappy timetabling and split classes, then I need to think about that employee - why should they be going home worn out and demoralised to their family, because they've been given a rubbish timetable? Employees should be treated equitably.

And it's also pointless to ignore market forces. Of course it's applicable to education. My school now gets in excess of 40 applications for some posts, whereas a few years ago it would be maybe 5. There are more people out there wanting to do the job, which gives the employer a wider pool to select from. That doesn't mean ignoring legislation or being unfair to anyone - it's simply a fact.

chibi, that is very well said, esp paras 2 and 3. I also agree re the undercover misogyny

violethill, are you suggesting that education is a free market economy?

Market forces are completely at odds with the education system; I don't know how you can reconcile them with putting the pupils' needs first.

"Working in education, I actually think that the needs of the pupils must come first"

This is trite and emotive. Why even take a salary then? Your salary could be better spent on resources for the pupils.

You know as well as I do that it's a balance- between the needs of the staff, pupils and employer. I think the legislation is balanced correctly, as it to tip it any further in favour of the employer would hugely disadvantage the employees. This does not mean that there are currently no disadvantages to the employer, but looking at the wider context, the disadvantages to the employer are a drop in the ocean compared to how employees would suffer were the employers' needs to be met in such a way. Employer's needs are not synonymous with pupils' needs, by the way.

I'm not being deliberately anything, TE. I just happen to have a different point of view from you, which is something I am entitled too. I'm sure someone in the past has fought for my right to free speech and free thought and I am darned well going to use it.

I really don't get the notion that because you are entitled to something, you have to use it. There are many factors that should influence your behaviour, entitlement being only one of them.

You are very welcome to use your entitlement till the cows come home, but as long as a core number of your colleagues don't do likewise, you will be carried by them.

If everyone demanded payment for work outside of core times, the school will be left devoid of any spirit. Maybe your school is like that already.

'I think the legislation is balanced correctly'

• that single phrase sums up the issue doesn't it? Generally, People will decide whether they think it's correctly balanced depending on their own particular situation at any one time. That's why someone who wants to change from full time to part time will see things one way, to suit them, and then maybe later on when they want to be full time again, they'll see things differently. And maybe one day if they become a HeadTeacher, they will see things differently again!!

Unless, of course, you stand back and try to see the bigger picture.

BTW I'm sorry you see it as trite and emotive that I think the needs of the pupils come first. I disagree with you.

As for the part about. 'Why accept any payment for the job?' I fail to understand why you are moving into the realms of rhetoric again, as I have found most of your posts well thought out and well expressed. My point about market forces is simply that during times when a particular job (in this case teaching) has many more people wanting to do it than there are jobs available, the employer has a bigger and more attractive pool to select from. Fact. I don't see how that needs to be reconciled with putting pupils needs first!! I currently have 42 applications to look over for a History post (History being one of the subjects I line manage.) Over 20 of them look incredibly strong. When a similar post was advertised 4 years ago, there was a trickle of applications and only 2 real contenders. That's market forces. It means that I have a better chance of selecting someone who want to do the job that needs doing and will do it excellently. What is there possibly to disagree with there? It's not controversial, it's plain fact!

"I'm sure someone in the past has fought for my right to free speech and free thought and I am darned well going to use it.[...] I really don't get the notion that because you are entitled to something, you have to use it."

Best quote of the thread MmeBlueberry

In much the same way you are 'entitled too[sic] an opinion' (what a winning argument), I am entitled to disagree with it. Which is what we're doing.

Please point out where I have insinuated that you are not allowed to state your opinion.

"You are very welcome to use your entitlement till the cows come home, but as long as a core number of your colleagues don't do likewise, you will be carried by them."

You are not welcome, you are entitled to use your entitlement. You use your entitlement every day, whether you realise it or not.

The very notion that I and others who get what they are entitled to are carried by anyone is odd, and quite insulting. Where is your evidence that a 'core number' of my part time colleagues don't get paid wages they are entitled to?

"If everyone demanded payment for work outside of core times, the school will be left devoid of any spirit."

Nobody is 'demanding' anything. Do you 'demand' your salary at the end of the month? Read the legislation.

"Maybe your school is like that already."

Actually, by brain is melting slightly as I try to imagine just what you would make of my school's 'spirit'

Twinset, am going to try and persuade you!

The extra money re threshold you are entitled to - my father, as someone who controls school budgets, would be badgering in a very flattering way to apply - all good teachers deserve this money, that's what it's there for. It is a means of rewarding teachers who do not want to lose contact with the classroom by going into management - the only way of advancing one's pay at one time - but remain where their heart is, in the classroom. It is the teachers' pay rise.

It was recognised that as a graduate profession, teachers were underpaid. Going through a few hoops re form filling and adding an element of performance assessment was 'sold' as chiming in with accountability and would only given to good teachers but, to be frank, according to Roger Gale who asked my father's advice at the time in about 2001, said it had to be packaged that way to get it passed without action from other professions, notably one, who uses ours to benchmark their pay.

If you are up to date with training and are a reflective practitioner it's quick to do. If it goes against principles to accept the money personally, then I'm sure there are causes close to your heart that could benefit, or channel that money into your own professional development, such as your second degree, as then education and your pupils benefit directly.

violethill, that is what I mean by trying to see it from all angles- you will always be biased based on your own position.

WRT 'market forces'- you are focusing on one tiny aspect of education, recruitment. My objection is that market forces have no place in education as education is not a free market economy. So, although I concede that market forces are at play in the recruitment process, I do not think this is something to be celebrated or replicated and reassert that this is precisely why legislation is necessary.

My question 'Why take a salary?' was a response to your assertion that the pupils' needs come first. If we carry your argument to its conclusion, then why take a salary if that money could be better spent on the pupils? It's not rhetoric, but I am glad that you see the notion of working without a salary as laughable. I am just pointing out that taking a salary is putting your own needs before those of the pupils, and is not necessarily a bad thing.

Education is subject to market forces. They pretty much drive education, with league tables, etc.

Although salaries are standardised, there is still scope for a school to demonstrate market economics. For example, they can employ a teacher who is more willing to do 'extras', or who bring something extra to the job.

They can choose the level of experience when offering jobs, such as giving a job to an NQT rather than someone who is at the top of the scale.

The school can also decide how to deploy their budget, which inevitably has an impact on the teaching and learning experience.

As for the threshold topic, this is the first year that I am eligible and it is one of my targets for the year. I haven't done anything towards it . I am a procrastinator, and there is always something more interesting for me to do than to collect and compile the evidence required. It is not a one-hour job, but something that you need to devote time to throughout the year. I know my boss and my headmistress will give me a hard time about not working towards my main target when it is review time in the summer term, and I will just have to be like one of my stubborn pupils and try to weather the storm . The irony is that a lot of what I do when I get distracted is ideal threshold evidence, such as pupil tracking (I love it, call me weird). Next year, next year... .

I think I phrased it more nicely by saying welcome rather than entitled. Ya boo!

MmeBlueberry, what are you on about? 'More nicely?'

threshold does not have to be some massive job. evidence i used included -

pm reviews
lesson obs
resources i created (all electronic)
references from my line manager/dept head
links to stuff i created for the vle

it should be even easier now that the process is based on (entirely?) pm evidence. make sure that your pm reviews have threshold targets in mind.

Choice in the state sector is so limited that it can never be a free market economy- and nor should it be IMO (look at what the adoption of pseudo-market forces have done to the railways for example) but perhaps that is another thread

MmeBlueberry, you no longer have to provide evidence for threshold, it is now based on your PM targets and reviews. Which you would know if you took any notice of legislation

Well I for one, celebrate the fact that my school will have a better choice of applicants from which to select for the important job of educating our future adults. As a parent I celebrate that too for my children's schools.

But you are limited in your choice of which school you can send your children to- hence the unsuitability of market forces.

But I am getting sucked in, and it's definitely another argument

Anyway, I'm off out for mother's day lunch now

What does PM stand for?

I have to provide evidence for mine - ISA school.

pm = performance management

Performance Management. Are you sure you're a teacher at all?

Performance Management.

EvilTwins

Yes tethersend - it's a totally different argument!

I'm afraid you can't avoid the fact that where there a greater number of good candidates going for one job, the employer has a better chance of selecting a really good person for the job that needs doing.

Enjoy your lunch!

Yes, I am a teacher. Performance Management are just empty words. They give no clue about specifics.

We have annual appraisals with targets for the next academic year. It is a fairly rigorous process and taken seriously. We don't attribute capital letters to it, though.