Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Education

Join the discussion on our Education forum.

Original poster

"Mumsnet hate private schools"

200 replies

Swedington · 01/12/2009 21:31

I read this in the newspaper recently. (I think maybe it was a quote of Justine's.)

I know there are some posters who are to Mumsnet what Bob Crow is to the London Underground (hope you saw him on HIGNFY), but I don't think there is a huge anti private school thing going on here is there?

OP posts:
Litchick · 03/12/2009 12:08

uqd - I think you're absolutely right about choice.
But I've come to the (sad) conclusion that choice is an illusion in most walks of life and that without money there is little or no choice to be had.

Supposedly, this is a free country and I can live anywhere - but that's not the case.
Supposedly everyone is equal before the law, but lawyers cost so much is that really the case?

There si no freedom or choice for the poor. And we should stop pretending there is.
And those of us who are not poor should thank our lucky stars every day.

UnquietDad · 03/12/2009 14:46

The reason I bang on about the illusion of "choice" in education is that it's always being cited. Nobody would claim that the poor have a "choice" to buy a big car. And yet somehow everyone has educational "choice", even that involving having vast reserves of savings.

I agree people manipulate their options in the state sector, but would argue that private school "choice" is different from the others as it is the only option where people buy themselves out of an entire system.

UnquietDad · 03/12/2009 15:14

Metella - Private school can never be the only option surely. It may the the only one you are prepared to conscience, and which you are conveniently able to afford.

What happens to people in your position who can't afford private school? One assumes they go out of the authority. It's illegal not to send a child to school (or home ed) so they must do something...

Willbreakmybones · 03/12/2009 15:42

What no one has mentioned yet is that those who for private schooling are in fact paying for schooling twice, via tax, so we should, in all honesty, warmly thank them for their charitable giving.

Best way round this is let EVERYONE with children have education vouchers to spend as they wish. The whole market needs cracking open. Sure there will be losers, but I suspect the winners would greatly outnumber them.

Unquiet Dad - surely a voucher system would go a long way towards providing choice for many who currently do not have it?

fivecandles · 03/12/2009 16:27

Except nobody gets a bursary for a free car UQD. You always conveniently ignore bursaries when you come out with your usual arguments against private schools. The kids who get bursaries are amongst the poorest and the most gifted in our country. In fact, the very kids who in UQD utopia would go to state grammar school...

zazizoma · 03/12/2009 17:22

I'm really liking what I'm hearing from a CertainAge in particular about the ideological concerns around state education.

My reasons for opting for independent education are that I'm not keen on the ideology behind the national curriculum and the focus on exams (that and class size . . . )

I don't see why we couldn't have a state system implemented that involved a choice of educational approaches and methodologies, rather than one size fits all. I suspect this is akin to what the Tories have in mind.

I would love for the UK to emulate the California charter school model, where a group of parents and teachers can put together a proposal for a school and get state funding to make it happen. The control of education is then no longer in the hands of the state, rather the state simply facilitates what the citizenry wants to bring.

Original poster
Swedington · 03/12/2009 17:28

Also if you buy a car you opt out of public transport and don't actually pay for a season ticket as well as running your car.

OP posts:
CertainAge · 03/12/2009 18:17

Just because some people don't have a choice, why should no one have a choice?

And why is this notion limited to education?

Original poster
Swedington · 03/12/2009 18:36

CertainAge - agree. Not every one can afford a car. Or an iphone.

OP posts:
selectivememory · 03/12/2009 18:48

I am not saying people shouldn't have a choice, all I am saying is it isn't particularly fair.

Now, if you go with the Life Isn't Fair mantra, then fine.

So educate your children privately, that's fine, but don't tell me it's fair because it isn't.

CertainAge · 03/12/2009 18:51

People don't generally have choices through luck. They study and work hard in order to give themselves more choices.

You could say that it is not fair that some people have no working person in their household and claim benefits, financed by people who do work.

Original poster
Swedington · 03/12/2009 18:53

selectivememory. I think we all agree it isn't fair. But is it less fair than moving to the leafy road that backs on to St Snots, the top state school in the town? Given that the latter deprives someone from the council estate further away from the school gates of their place? Private school actually frees up a state school place, possibly at St Snots?

We're discussing the hierarchy of wrongness.

OP posts:
selectivememory · 03/12/2009 18:55

Actually, I don't resent people who have no working person in their household and claim benefits and are financed by people who do work, I feel sorry for them.

And I think that is the fundamental difference between some people. You see things from totally different viewpoints.

ElenorRigby · 03/12/2009 19:03

I make up my own mind in my child's interests and hate being told what to do.

selectivememory · 03/12/2009 19:03

Swedington,but that is where I think Grammar Schools, pior to the ridiculous tutoring thing that goes on now, came into their own.

I absolutely know for a fact that the intake at my DCs GS was completely different 20 or so years ago (I have helped with the archives so have seen it for myself). It realy did serve those children who were poor but clever, who won their places there fair and square.

I know there are equally clever children in the private sector, but there are also equally clever children who do not have the choice of a decent secondary school and it is appalling.

There are lots of very good comprehensives but it does have to be admitted there are some pretty crap ones too.

I just think it is plain wrong that the education of children should depend on their parents' income. That's all.

Even that Milliband chap who seems pretty clever is quite keen on fairness.

CertainAge · 03/12/2009 19:14

If there are appalling comprehensive schools, then fix them and leave private schools out of it!

It is not the fault of private schools that the state system is in a, well, state.

The state system is in a state mainly because of bad behaviour. There has been so much money thrown at it in terms of technology, human resources and other things, yet they have not even made a dent in the bad behaviour. Fix that, and schools will improve and become more marketable.

But you can't wait until they are in school.

zazizoma · 03/12/2009 19:17

ra29needsabettername, I think you may have missed the point of stealthsquiggle's question. It has nothing to do with money, choice or fairness . . . simply whether or not it is desirable to have every child in the country sent through the same national curriculum, determined by the party in power.

Blu · 03/12/2009 19:19

I am a raging lefty, and I absolutely don't 'hate private schools'. I went to one, for part of my education, for starters! But that has given me some perspective.

I hate certain things that SOME parents say and presume, some of which pertain to private schools.

I hate certain things that SOME parents say about state schools, and some assumptions about things that will be 'bad' about them. And the way social factors get conflated with educational.

I hate the way SOME parents get caught up in a sort of competitive tutoring scenario in a particular way.

In the Direct Grant school I attended (a long long time ago) it was obvious that many students were not that bright or clever, but were being 'propped up' and helped through by private ed.

I am lucky. I live in a much maligned borough in S London, but we have good state options. I can't afford to send DS to a private school, but would only do so if something went v badly wrong at state secondary - a sort of emergency back-up. My own experience of private ed makes me think of it a bit like steroids in sport - but I know that is unreasonable - and, crucially, I would NEVER feel critical of a parent who chose private ed for their child on the grounds that it was private! The most I would do is question some of the assumptions I have heard made by some parents.

JeffVadar · 03/12/2009 19:36

I agree that getting rid of grammar schools was a huge mistake. True, there was unfairness in the system, but surely this could have been remedied by improving the Secondary Moderns, rather than losing the grammar schools ? which were working well.

There is research which indicates that middle class children will always do the best in any system, however good or bad the school is. It would seem that there are some inequalities you cannot eradicate.

selectivememory · 03/12/2009 19:53

Agree JeffVadar.

There will always be children who aren't clever, I completely don't agree that everyone is the same. What is so wrong is the outcome of the 'average' child, depending on whether they are in the state or private sector.

Those who pay will argue that is exactly why they do. Doesn't actually make their children more clever though in the long run,just buys them better results.

oldwomanwholivedinashoe · 03/12/2009 20:09

I am a head teacher and I absolutely would not send my child to private education even if I was a millionnaire and the answer to why this is is because as a Head I see the pressure there is to help children achieve in the system by Local Authorities and external forces. private education is exepmt from these external forces. They are also isolated from professional developemnt of their staff - offered FREE to staff in state schools. They are exepmt from many many opportunities to tae part in excellent strategies for school improvement. I Know - I have employed many staff from private schools system who have moved into main stream because they are losing touch with education and the developments within it. I have also had children come to my school from private education because their parentrs were unhappy with the standard of education. they have since expressed happiness in our setting. If your child has MLD then private education has less than nothing to offer your child as this system recieves no suport for MLD whereas ESAP funding in mainstream can help MLD children to achieve.
The ONLY benefit from private education is class size and MANY private schools are now having to increase class sizes.
BTW I am a head in one of the most deprived wards in the country and we still get good results, good behaviour, good attainment and achievement.

oldwomanwholivedinashoe · 03/12/2009 20:14

sorry about typos! I get carried away!!

Original poster
Swedington · 03/12/2009 20:36

Blu - That's very interesting.

I went to a state grammar. And my sons' education at a fee-paying selective boys' days school is pretty much the same education I received in the 70s/80s, courtesy of the state. It's such a shame the grammar system exists only exceptionally now.

OP posts:
selectivememory · 03/12/2009 20:56

Oldwoman, I am sorry but I don't know what ESAP means , I imagine MLD means moderate/mild learning difficulties? Apologise if wrong.

I don't agree that the only advantage private schools give their children is small class sizes. I truely wish it were so. But I think it runs deeper than that.

ra29needsabettername · 03/12/2009 20:57

I chose not to send ds to grammar either because in my local area it felt just as segregating as the private schools. I want ds to grow up intergrated with society not hidden away from it. Around my neck of London I do not beieve grammar school is really a more moral choice than private. I believe in state education, sticking with it and helping support and change from the inside if necessary. It does bug me that I really think some people are afraid of their local schools.