"Mumsnet hate private schools"

[Swedington]

I read this in the newspaper recently. (I think maybe it was a quote of Justine's.)

I know there are some posters who are to Mumsnet what Bob Crow is to the London Underground (hope you saw him on HIGNFY), but I don't think there is a huge anti private school thing going on here is there?

Really, UQD .
Don't you just post on them all?

Yes, it's "unfair", but as others have pointed out, life is unfair.

I absolutely do not accept that although we can (just) afford to send our DC to private schools, and have found private schools that we believe are good value for money in terms of what they deliver over and above the state system, and that seem (so far) to be right for them, we should not do that because some a lot other parents and children don't have that choice.

That's ludicrous. It's like saying you should not live in a nice house, eat good food, or go on holiday simply because not everyone can afford to do so.

IME, and I have been on MN a while now, is that MN does not hate private schools. However, like many topics and debate son MN, there are people of both extreme views of the arguement for and against private schools, and a whole load of others somewhere int he middle, and a few more who just couldn't care less.

no stealth, it's quite different in fact. saying that all children deserve as a right a good education - is different from asserting that everyone should give up their worldly goods.

the same goes for healthcare. there should not be a two tier system - a better system for those that can afford it.

thats different from saying that people should give up their nice car becuase others can't afford one

Well I think evidently most people who use private schools think they are providing a better education for their kids than parents whose kids go to state schools...an attitude unlikely to endear them to the parents of state school educated children

I agree with custy and also am not prepared to attack individuals or I would have no bloody friends left!Apart from anything it allows a certain social 'type' to over populate certain professions which could do with a wider demographic imo.

I hate private schools. Or at least I hate that there are private schools. I do. I think people can make their own choices of course. I wouldn't abolish them I don't think, and I certainly don;t hate people who use private schools. But I think they are wrong to do so.

But by choosing a private school how exactly am I saying that all children do not deserve, as a right, a good education (which clearly they do)?

i think that is how these arguments get heated.

I did not say that. Nor am i attacking your personal choice.

It's pretty warped thinking to hate something that is good.

I think we are all agreed that all children deserve the right to a decent education, and that should be regardless of their parental income.

At the moment, a disproportionate amount of privately educated children get places at 'top' universities, not because they are more clever, but because they get the better results for GCSE and A level. Obviously some would get those results if they were not in the private sector, but many wouldn't.

Examinations have been dumbed down to the level where as long as you are a) reasonably bright b) do as you are told c) aren't in a disruptive environment etc etc then most children can expect to get an awful lot of As at GCSE. This is magnified x a lot in the private sector and that is what people pay for. It doesn't make them actually more intelligent though, it just makes them good at passing the exa

Top universities are now populated with frankly 'average' students and I imagine there are a fair few equally , or more so, intelligent children at crap state schools who don't stand a chance in hell of getting any of those places because they have been disadvantaged from the very, very start.

However, was probably twas ever thus, but I do think it has got worse in recent years, especially with the demise of the real and proper grammar school (ie where clever children got in without tutoring etc etc....boring myself now).

*examinations, obviously,

But I don't think they are good - not in the wider context. Good for the individuals who attend them perhaps. But like entropy I guess - the order there means disorder elsewhere...

The are good in the absolute. Hating them just smacks of envy.

Instead of being jealous, state schools should try to emulate them. There is a lot of culture endemic to the independent sector that actually doesn't cost anything or at least very little, such as the House system, competitive games, good manners across the board, support for charities, strict adherance to uniform, etc.

The major thing that costs in independent schools is the student:teacher ratio. Obviously, it is a political decision to reduce this, and practical in as much as there are only so many schools and teachers, but if a government really wanted to tackle class sizes, they could put in a long term programme.

The very hard thing to tackle is poor behaviour in state schools, and this is a major reason for the flight to private schools. Tackling behaviour starts way before the child is a thuggy Year 10. It needs to be tackled before they are born, tbh. I don't even see this government heading in the right direction.

I disagree with you that they are good in the absolute.

And the 'envy' argument is contemptible. I am not envious of private schools. I could afford to educate my children privately if I wanted. And even if I couldn't, it would still be nothing to do with envy.

And of course I want better state schools, but that is unrelated actually to my opposition to private schools.

How are they not good in the absolute.

In a closed, adiabatic (figuratively speaking) system, what is not good?

What closed system? Private schools aren;t a closed system. And Education is not a closed system.

In fact, that is where I think people are making the mistake. Your decision to educate your children privately does not simply affect your children. It has a knock-on effect on society in all sorts of ways.

See, one of the reasons why I have no time for private schooling is because sooner or later some idiot comes along and to defend it and says that anyone who does not educate their child privately is "envious". It has happened to me before on these boards and, ever since, I have mentally swerved away from the poster who said it.

However, I know I should not group those very stupid people in with all the other private schooling parents and I must get round my particular prejudice on that matter.

I do try, these days, not to group people together as types and just remember that we are all individual posters.

This much Mumsnet has taught me.

I used to teach in a school that was what could be referred to as a sink school. Around the school within walking distance wer lots of families who were commmited to education, from a variety of jobs and "classes". A very high number of childen from families whose parents were educated to degree level and had professional jobs educated their children in the private sector. My school became a ghetto for the jobless underclass who were often illiterate. The education of those children was affected by the existence and use of indpendent schools. While I don;t think that dropping a few "middle class" children into a school will save it, educating in such extreme deprivation is an uphill battle. The children knew they were at the school that no one wanted to go to, it used to break my heart.

I now teach in a state school that has a very wide intake, I teach kids from council estates and kids from country estates. It is a joyous place to be where children on the whole want ot succeed and do.

I now teach

Stretch your imagination and think of a bog standard private school on its own. What's not to like?

If you are always thinking from a state-centric view, then you will always be playing catch-up.

Suspend your disbelief for a few moments.

That is the problem though certainage people do not live in isolation, what we do affects our community.

And the knock on to society - well-mannered, polite, motivated, love learning, ambitious, full of self-belief....

Help me, I'm struggling to see the problem.

The fact that professions are over-represented by independent school alumni speaks for itself.

But Morosky, I don't see how abolishing private schools solves all of society's problems. What is the mechanism? What is the hypothesis?