How do we feel that private school kids fill Russell Group Unis?.... Controversial alert.

[faraday]

Yet I am increasingly finding that most of the people I know who have chosen private have done so because their DC just couldn't cope either socially or keep up academically in the local state schools (or a mixture of both!)- so they're individually hand-held, spoon-fed and tutored in the private sector- then emerge ready to grab those limited places from perhaps more clever but marginally less 'graded up' state school kids?

i am afraid thats life. and it doesnt just extend to HE. however I dont agree that this is right.

i think its less to do with the education the children are getting and more to do with attitude - of the school, the parents, the children etc. tremendous belief in oneself and ones children/charges or you could call it arrogance and pushyness prevails in the private sector.

I was told in state sector at age of 7 that i could expect to do a few cse's and that would probably be it. went to private school at 9 and now on 3rd degree. ok maybe a freak case but my teachers at private school and my parents never believed i could do anything less than achieve the very best.

I know plenty of very bright state school educated people and many of them were simply not encouraged to apply for russel group universities. there seems to be a certain level of deprecating/self deprecating in state sector which adds to the unrepresentative figures. just a thought.

The main complaint at my DSs comprehensive is that everyone in 6th form is encouraged to go to university, and aim high. Those that just want to get a job are made to feel that it is unusual!

I'd imagine the motives to privately educate are varied and different for each pupil. Some will do so because it has always been done in their family. Some will do so because they have the money and they can. Some will do it because they don't have a state school nearby with a good reputation. Some will do it because they had a crap time at state school and don't want the same for their own. And finally, some will do it because of all the horror stories surrounding state provided secondary education.

I'm from a left wing family, with a rough upbringing on a sink estate. I did o.k. at my comp, which is now an academy, but didn't go to university as my mum thought any further education was 'getting above yourself' and 'trying to be better than us'. It's almost comical to look back at it now, but that's the way it was.

I'm tempted to send dd to private school sometimes. She's in one of the nicest junior schools in the city and is very protected. The high school is plagued with stories of bullying, knife crime, drugs, etc. It's scary. If I could afford to privately educate, I'd be very, very tempted, but as someone said, you've got to have money over the bills to be able to scrimp and save for fees and we don't.

I hope dd will keep her love for knowledge. I hope she'll keep her sensible head. If she was sent to a private school it would be so she could have the best possible chance of succeeding, the best possible level of attention as a result of the much smaller class sizes and the increased one to one attention and the best possible resources.

Being one of 30 in a state school class is a bit of a lottery. Will they meet your child's needs? Won't they?? That's what you pay for with a private education. That's why it's not just for the bright or the dumb...

MM-that may be the case at your university but ours does spend a lot of time going through each application and scoring it for it against "widening participation" criteria. if we didn't we'd lose out on a chunk of funding from HEFCE. However the work is done centrally and not by admissions staff in schools, and in most cases the policy of considering a student whose predicted grades are lower does not kick in as we tend to find that those students from more challenging backgrounds who apply to us are already on target for our standard entry grades.

It is the case that it's not simply putting state educated kids ahead of kids from private schools though. A child from a "good" state school (anywhere where more than 50% get 5 A-C gCSEs) would only qualify if they met several of the other WP criteria.

Squilly - what a nice post.

There are plenty of schemes offering financial help in many independent schools, squilly. They are not all a haven for the rich and privileged. Selective schools want the brightest children and , since the abolition of government assisted places, many schools have their own schemes. This is not the same as a scholarship ( though there are those too) and depends entirely on parental income.

My own children benefited from such help ( coupled with much scrimping!) and the school I now teach in has a ( IMO) generous number of assisted places. This also has the positive benefit of widening the social mix.

There seems to be a popular belief that children will do well whatever the school as long as they're getting back-up from home. I don't necessarily buy that having taught in a couple of schools where yobbish behaviour - and worse - were an everyday event. What sort of experience is that for a quiet, averagely bright child - the ones who often get overlooked in such places?

Is it possible then that Admissions Tutors are receiving the applications AFTER another department has 'sorted through' for 'widening participation' criteria? So they do not realise that some applications have been discarded before they get to them, IYSWIM?

Another problem there is with SOME state schools, is that they are encouraging able pupils to take 'soft' A levels which then are not accepted by top universities. Whereas private and grammar schools tend to only go for the most academic of subjects.

Scienceteacher -could you explain what you mean by personal/positive contact with the admissions tutor please? are you referring to interviews or going to an open day and actively seeking them out?

Surely the main point is that the 'averagely bright' in the independent sector are being offered more university places than the 'averagely bright' in the state sector, mainly because the former can expect better results than the latter. Which patently isn't fair, but then Life Isn't Fair as we all know.....which is a great shame.

The state secondary school my son will be going to has a fantastic attitude towards their children, they recognise that not all children are academically able, for those capable of getting top grades in their gcse's they push them to achieve their full potential, for those children not as academic, once they reach year ten they are allowed to study something of interest to themselves, in a lot of cases they send them to college to do hairdressing, vehicle maintenance and the school is a top class sports facility as well. This is fantastic and has worked well for the school in cutting the number of truancys.

I think theres pros and cons for both private and state education, and tbh its parents choice which as a parent you're entitled to make. I personally think if your child isnt academically able...then no school in the world either private or state will get them top results in subjects that dont interest them.

I also scrimp and save.....just to get by! If I could save many thousands a year theres not a chance it would be spent on a private school as I have bigger priorities.

And the post about bullying.....bullying happens in EVERY school.....private schools included, any headteacher that tells you bullying doesnt go on in their school is a liar. Not wanting to stereotype but my personal experience is that the worst bullies are those with money, they think money equals power and gives them the right to look down their noses at people they see as beneath them, good old British snobbery hey

Lazymum,

I am talking about the applicant contacting the admissions tutor around the time that they receive the UCAS form. The personal statement on the UCAS form is very short and has to appeal to all five choices, so a personal letter can offer additional, targeted, information. Departmental visits (not Open Days) are useful too.

I'm sure you're right OP. Schools like Winchester and Wycombe Abbey are full of rich thickoes.

Yes, well I think we can see from here that the independent sector knows how to 'work the system' a bit better.

quattro, your article is 7 years out of date! Here's the wikepedia article on the Bristol Admissions Controversy, but they're supposed to have sorted out a fair(er) system now.

I would imagine that private schools make their pupils (and parents) more aware of the differences between universities. Therefore RG universities probably have a higher percentage of applications from private school pupils.

DDs state school for example have meetings for pupils and parents who are considering Oxbridge applications, but don't appear to differentiate between all the other universities.

The point is Kazzi79, it's possible to receive a free independent education if your income's low enough, therefore no scrimping needed.

If the state system's serving you well, that's great, but if it isn't, a child's education is too massive a priority to leave to chance. Snobbery doesn't come into it.

I used the word snobbery in terms of talking about those with wealth who bully those they believe to be beneath them, not in terms of private schools, I'm not saying every person with wealth is a bully just saying that in my life experience of bullies the ones who have money and wealth are the worst.

I personally don't have a problem with private schools, every parent is entitled to choose the school they believe is best for their child, every decent parent wants the best for their children after all. I'm lucky in the area I live in does have some very good state schools (this hasnt always been the case), I appreciate some areas have state schools that aren't as good.

With regards to university......surely all that matters is that you come out with what you went there to achieve, if employers only want people from certain universities then I have to say I personally wouldnt want to work for someone with such a shallow attitude anyway.

Thanks for your comments Haribosmummy and Campion.

DD is actually very bright and doing well in primary, always in top 5 in the class. We have discussed the chances/possibility of her going through to the private sector, BUT DH is against it. He thinks that the 'rarefied' environment of private schools give great academic results but not always the most balanced view of life. Also, she'd be the little poor kid in the little rich kids world...I struggled with that even in my sink estate comp. I got top streamed with the private house owning kids (pretty much exclusively) and got bullied for that, so it's not something I'd like to replicate.

Bullying does come in at all kinds of schools. You get kids in a group, you get some element of gang mentality, be it the preppy ones who hate the townies or the townies who hate the preppies. I think you'd have to be pretty naieve to think paying for an education guarantees you a smooth pathway for your child emotionally, educationally or in any other way. Kids will be challenged in different way in each environment.

We're hoping that dd's sensible head (she's 8, going on 45 most of the time) will keep her away from the majority of trouble during secondary school. She's a self starter, competitive and generally interested in education, so hopefully that'll carry her through the comp without undue difficulties.

In an ideal world state education would give us everything we want for our girl, but that ideal world doesn't exist. We are at the stage where we've balanced out her needs for academic success vs her need for social integration and have decided that the latter is probably much more important. For that reason alone, I'll happily back up my husband's desire and let dd follow the path through comp to university and then into the big wide world.

She may not get the best grades, the best university place in the world, but with the right support and encouragement I'm hopeful that she'll do well in life. And if there's one thing I've learned, having managed graduates from all kinds of different backgrounds, it's that a great education isn't the be-all and end-all you might think.

OOoh- The University that am currently studying at is a Russell Group Redbrck Uni (the original Redbrick Uni I hasten to add)

La di da.

Not another "independent" schools thread.

I wish there really were such a thing...

i went to universities no. 3 and no.4 in the times 'good university' guide.

all from a rough inner-city comp.

when i got there i found some super-posh but not very bright students from private schools BUT mostly (in my subject) discovered that my straight-As were nothing in this new world and that i was actually only 'average' and that there were far far brighter people than me around (and most of them had been educated in private schools).

I went to a Russell Group/ Sussex Trust Uni with a state education.

DH went to a Russell Group/ Sussex Trust from a public school background - he got to go to that school with a bursary because he is exceptionally bright (got a first, year awards and a PhD at Uni), but his parents couldn't afford to pay the fees. He got his Uni place by damn hard work (and having a large brain to start with) - and also damn hard work from his dad (a tradesman) to pay his share of the fees.

I really don't think the OP stands up as an argument.

I went to a comp. and then on to Cambridge University.

Half the people there had been to state schools. Infact, three people from my comp. went to Cambridge and loads got all As at A-level and went to the other Russell Group Universities.

You can do very well at a comprehensive school. They are setted and so - if you are in a top set - it's like being in a private school (which are generally selective) or a selective grammar school.

When you go round your local comp. ask them about their Oxbridge entrance. If some children can get all As at A-level, then you needn't worry about the teaching.

The thing that stops ALL state school children going to Oxbridge is that many of the children aren't bright enough. (Private schools will select and not take the dim children so will always be able to get a greater percentage of their children in to the 'top' universities.)

There is possibily also an expectation issue...a few of my class thought they weren't bright enough and wouldn't apply. I had more confidence because my parents had been to Cambridge and I always thought I was as able as them.

Thanks for that info Scienceteacher. He is going to a college open day at cambridge where you meet the director of studies for your subject and the tutors. He'll go on his own so i don't let him down by saying something stupid!

And that tip about a follow up letter is really useful as some of the courses he's applying for differ slightly and the personal statement doesn't allow that flexibility.

OP, private education differs enormously, you can't just bunch it all together. Some of the schools are non selective and take a wide range of abilities.

The issues that needs to be addressed are the lack of appplications by state schools to the best universities and the fact that often the correct 'hard' subjects are not being encouraged/taken,which cuts down their choices.