How do we feel that private school kids fill Russell Group Unis?.... Controversial alert.

[faraday]

Yet I am increasingly finding that most of the people I know who have chosen private have done so because their DC just couldn't cope either socially or keep up academically in the local state schools (or a mixture of both!)- so they're individually hand-held, spoon-fed and tutored in the private sector- then emerge ready to grab those limited places from perhaps more clever but marginally less 'graded up' state school kids?

Instead of having a rant about there being so many private school pupils at the top universities why is no one picking up on the other side. ie. what to do about the smaller percentage of state school pupils (not selective grammer schools).

"When you go round your local comp. ask them about their Oxbridge entrance."

This seems to assume that we have some choice in where they are sent for Secondary.
A child is in school from Y7 to Y13 so a school 'generation' is 7 years. Our local comp hasn't sent anyone to either Oxford or Cambridge for two generations.

Builde makes a very good point. But I still think the difference between the results of AVERAGELY intelligent pupil at a not v good state school and an independent school is depressing, ie the independently educated will get better results, and therefore place at 'top' university just by dint of their parents paying which isn't particularly fair.

Presumably this is why parents DO pay for their average child to go to a private school.

A good school should enable every child to reach his or her full potential, if a child is not very academic then I doubt that a private school could magically change this to them getting straight A's (although I accept I could be wrong on that)

Not all children are academic, nor does being academic interest all children, some prefer to concentrate on sport or drama etc. If one of my children was average academically but a talented sports player I'd rather they were encouraged to shine at sport than be forced to sit in a classroom learning something that didnt interest them, just my opinion, if they were capable of getting straight A's then theres no reason why they cant achieve this at a good state school.

Children have a certain (differing) amount of abilities in a range of disciplines. I think that perseverence and hard work will make a significant difference to how far that talent can go. What difference does a school make? Well schools can encourage, direct and point the way. Good schools can also supply a quality peer group which is interested in learning. What schools absolutely can't do is turn a sow's ear into a silk purse.

also let's bear in mind that it's not just a case of them getting into Russell Group universities

they've got to come out too

and preferably not too soon....

Schools can't turn a sow's ear into a silk purse but I do think, considering the constraints applied to the current GCSE/A level examining system, they can turn average students into A grade students. In fact I KNOW they can because several of my DCs contemporaries who did noteven pass the test(let alone gain a place) to the local highly selective grammar schools did suddenly end up with fantastic GCSE results, and I doubt they would have achieved that at a bog standard comp (NOT, I hasten to add at our local outstanding comp).

The point I am making is that 'average' students do get better results from independent schools, which is presumably what one is paying the money for.

Doesn't make them any more 'intelligent' though, just gives them better results, which isn't fair on those who can't pay.

I completely get the OP's statement. In our area, only the ones who don't get into the grammar schools tend to opt for the private sector and then they miracuously get places at 'top' universities....job done.

However, I do accept that this is particular to my area and there are many people who choose to send their children to independent schools for many and varying reasons, including those who wouldn't ever dream of using the state system,it wouldn't even enter their minds (eg generations who have always gone to Eton etc).

Even if the OP did live in a grammar school area (of which there are precious few in the UK) I still don't buy that statement. There are still people in GS areas who just wouldn't send their children into the state system just because ... of sports and music and stuff. Or even better academic results. Think the OP's sample size is limited.

"then they miracuously get places at 'top' universities....job done."

nope, job not done until they have actually passed their university finals

Yes, that is true Cory. And yes, Quattrocentro there are people who still would never educate their children in the state system.

However, for those that do, they do get better results for an average student and thus an advantage in the university application system.

There will always be students who aren't 'academic' enough to gain a university place but it will also always be that an 'average' student who is able to take advantage of an independent school is more than likely to get better 'results'due to the smaller classes, less disruption, peer pressure, music lessons....ie all the reasons parents choose to send their offspring to those schools.

Fair enough.BUT it is not fair on those who can't afford to pay and it DOES NOT make those children intrinsicly more intelligent. They will get better exam results though. A poor but bright child, given those advantages, would also get the results and place at 'top' university but they don't get the chance in the first place.

I think that poor but bright children who are well motivated will always do better than children who are average but well-tutored.

The difference is in the margins, I think and I agree that that is unfair.

Whether it's any more unfair than getting better results because your children are catholic or jewish or because your parents are wealthy enough to live in a leafy suburb, I don't know. What about the children of graduate parents who themselves have a massive advantage nomatter where the children are educated? There are lots of different inequalities.

I'm a bit uninformed on this one so maybe someone could help me out, I don't understand why some universities are classed as top universities and more importantly why is it so important to get into one? If you're going to study for a degree you can do it at any uni and on paper a degree from Oxford is worth exactly the same as a degree from Manchester, so why does the choice of uni matter? I hate using the phrase snobbery as I appreciate not all people who are wealthy are snobs but if an employer is going to employ someone purely on the basis of the university they attended that has to be snobbery right?

Kazzi, I would hope that my dcs go to university (if they go at all) for what they will actually learn there, not for the snob value. And what you will learn will not be the same at different universities. The tuition system at Oxbridge is quite different from other universities for a start. And exams are different; it's not like A-levels where everybody across the country sits the same exam. Universities set their own exams. Universities who get the best students can afford to push them harder and get them further and demdand more of the students who get a first. Employers know this. So not necessarily snobbery.

Thanks for that, it was just something I wondered

It's basically not a national curriculum. In my faculty even the undergraduate course components will be decided to some extent by what members of staff we currently have and what their specialities are. So if university X has a specialist in medieval monasteries they will run a course on medieval monasticism where university Y will run a course on military history because they happen to have an expert on the crusades on their pay list. The advantage is that you get taught by people who really know their stuff - and of course the careful student checks out which university is really strong in his or her particular subject/area of interest before applying.

Just out of interest, what faculty do you work in? You dont have to tell me if you dont want to, just I'm interested in speaking with tutors who teach the social work degree, I'm working on behalf of domestic violence victims and trying to highlight changes that I feel need to be made to social workers bearing in mind DV cases account for 70% of their workload I want to get together as many views from as many different people as poss before putting together my report

you can be very academic but not very good at normal ways of presenting thought. there is something very important about colleges who admitt through interview and portfolio as well as grades.
the support for example cambridge now give to students with aspergers,is brill both at a social and accademic level.

I don't buy into all this 'unfairness', re private school pupils getting better grades.

It is the child that gets the grade because they have worked for it. They have been studious in class, done all their homework, asked for extra lessons, revised well, etc.

Why should their efforts be always put down? Their parents may pay, but they are doing their bit too.

"why does the choice of uni matter?"

It matters to prospective employers. Some (very few but they do exist) firms actually only recruit from Oxford or Cambridge because they have a reputation for selecting the brightest and the best. Other firms will select also on the basis of the university.

DH's employer only recruits from a small number of universities (all are RG).

They only devote sufficient resources to do the milk round and intern recruiting from selected places. Those places have provided them with enough high calibre candidates over the years. There is no business reason to cast the net wider.

Maybe it'll become a non-issue soon. I was talking to some 6th form leavers recetnly from a leading public school. Many of them them had offers from Oxbridge, Russell Gp, AND US Ivy League. So RG was third choice, Ob second, and Ivy League first. This seems to be a growing trend, so maybe there will soon be plenty of places available at all UK universities, and the OP will be able to lose her chip

We are certainly considering Ivy League. Our kids are American, and the financial aid system and our family size/income means that an Ivy League education is very cost efficient for us.

But it is only a consideration - I think DS1 will still hope to get into Imperial. He is not interested in Cambridge.

So how do you go about applying to an Ivy league university ? I guess this is not something state kids are told about ?