Grr. LONG ALERT! Ever wonder why you bother when you bend over backwards to help DCs achieve their best- and they can't be bothered??

[gaussgirl]

OK, I know I will be flamed her about being all 'middle class and pushy'..

but: I am happy to say I've calmed down a bit now but on Sunday I was hopping! Situation is that we know we HAVE to do something about getting into catchment for the desired secondary before Oct 09 so DS1, now in Y5, can attend.

School in question, having done my homework at great length is the best fit for him. It will involve a move of 1 1/4 miles, across a couple of fields to 'get in' but DH and I feel we should do this for the sake of his (and DS2, to follow)'s education, thus their future, thus their life chances (which, all being well, = happiness).

Thing is, DS1, 9 1/2 just CANNOT BE ARSED to do ANYTHING! All extra curricular activities are invariably greeted with a groan -though once he gets there he's fine; be it karate, cubs or piano (in school); gently applied advice about how to perhaps 'go the extra mile - nay INCH'! in homework, results in huffs, book 'chucking' down, sulking (he will not take 'help' from anyone save perhaps his school teacher...), the "I can't DO this/ I'm RUBBISH at this!" stuff cannot be assisted without the huffs as detailed above. It is SO frustrating!

I guess I come at it from a couple of angles: One is my mother, though she loves DS1 dearly, has casually and accurately observed that DS1 is very like my DB was at that age. DB, coming as we did from a different era (we're both in our late 40s!) wasn't 'pushed' at all. Rubbish secondary modern, no pressure to apply himself to ANYTHING that didn't take his fancy, no 'extension activities' of any description, us (well, me!) having to BEG to do music lessons, Brownies etc. Trouble is, DB's turned into at worst a bitter man, at best one who recognises that he's achieved nothing near his potential in life- OK, OK, how many of us do? But he's MILES off. He drives a delivery van for a living, a job he dislikes- but entirely of his own admission, he knows he lacks the discipline to do anything about it and does kind of blame our parents for NOT making apply himself, get stuck in- or send him to a better school! I do recall that where mum and dad DID push him it was hell's own job to get compliance and once it became apparent that his school WAS rubbish, he was completely entrenched in it, at 13 and more or less unshiftable. Also, parents just didn't have the - ahem, 'choice' of today. You went to 'the local'.

A second issue is that in 10 years time there just will not BE the low paid manual work available to the slackers- and I mean that: DCs who by all measures are capable of more but who just can't be bothered.

Now, I guess what I want to give DS1 is opportunity. At its basest, if I do what I can, at the end of the day, he cannot turn around and cast that sort of blame on us because we are trying to do our best by him. I am hoping all those DCs who grow up to 'thank' their parents for 'making' them do things are right!

BUT god, it's so hard when you're trogging around housing estates looking at property with a constant barrage of boredom coming at you from the back seat as you look at those 'catchment' homes- and I mean one or 2, not hundreds! When you're gritting your teeth even harder whilst you SUGGEST two three word sentences do NOT constitute 'a descriptive paragraph about...'. I SO don't want to get into the 'We're doing this entirely for YOU!' stuff- to an almost 10 year old, but sometimes I feel like shouting it!

How much harder would it be if we were thinking private, watching 10 grand a year being casually thrown away??! I do have a friend who does send her 2 private who actually says one reason is so they can't throw any blame at her if they underachieve academically once they're adults.

Finally, I guess the most useful responses would be from people with adult DCs who had actually run the gamut not The Smugs telling me how much DD, aged 7 LOVES her bassoon lessons and can't WAIT to go to Kumon! Yes, DCs should be allowed time to veg and 'do nothing'. Believe me, mine get PLENTY of that- it's the bits where some effort might COUNT where the indifference lies that get to me!

Was it all worth it, come 18?

I think you have to remember the words 'almost 10 year old'. He is only little. Make the best decision about schools that you can for him, hope for the best, relax.

And they do grow up enormously between the ages of 9 and 15. They do, really. Even the small step from age 10 to 11 made a big difference in dd.

ok..so move for the catchment and then CALM DOWN...you come across as shrill, no wonder your child is fed up

you will have then done all you could at the time and he will turn out the way he will turn out

you dont have a crystal ball about the future and the world...(you don't do you?)

Good Lord you sound like a woman possessed.

You're being completely over the top!

If you want him to got a particular school and are happy to move, then move. Don't expect him to thank you, or recognise that its any kind of upheaval. HE IS 9!

Of course he doesn't understand that what he does now may/may not impact on his future chances. HE IS 9!

You are the parent. You make the decisions. Let him get on with being a child. Stop pushing him. HE IS 9!

I failed spectacularly at secondary school. I would never ever put in any effort. My dad nagged me til he was blue in the face. It made not a blind bit of difference.

I have gone on to have several two very successful careers, first in marketing and more recently, in teaching. I was a deputy head 5 years after I graduated from teacher training.

Go and look at houses on your own.

Littlefish puts if far more forcefully than me, but we mean the same thing. It is totally unrealistic to expect a 9-year-old to take any sort of responsibility for his future. How would you expect a 9-year-old to understand that being an accountant might be considered a more successful career than being a dustbin man? That is not how their minds work, how their minds are meant to work at 9.

If he is going to work, it has got to be for small and instant rewards (a smile from Mummy) rather than large and distant ones, for small and instant punishments (lunchtime detention for failure to complete homework) rather than large and distant ones (an unsuccessful career). If you want him to do extras, then you have to make those extras (whether it's reading an extra book or learning to play an instrument) fun and exciting to him, not another thing to get nagged about. It sounds as if he does feel under pressure; it would probably help if you could take the pressure off.

Well put Cory - much more helpful than mine!

FWIW I have the T shirt.

DD was clearly v v bright as a young child. She was also v strong willed and would not do anything she didn't want to do, incl at school. Head paid her back for her stroppiness by refusing to recommend her for grammar even tho she passed the 11+.

We knew she would sink at the high school and we managed to get her an assisted place at a private school. She changed overnight and was a pleasure for the next 5 years, while we put up with huge petrol bills and long school run. She got fantastic GCSE grades. We had to move her for A levels and she reverted to type She got into the university she wanted, worked hard and got a 2:1 but so far isn't following the career path she wanted (she tells me she is still very young for her field..)

With her as a role model, when we had problems with DS3 doing nothing at school (infants) we took the decision to move him. Long school run, massive disruption but worth it to sort him out. He had a much better school experience than he would have done and got into grammar but the not working continued. He had detentions and even exclusions in Y10 & Y11.

His wake up call came when he didn't pass the GCSEs he needed for the A levels he wanted to do and there was some doubt whether he would even be allowed to stay on. Took negotiation with the Head and the other staff. They took him but on "one false move and you're out". He seems to have turned the corner and is working, and even talking about university.

Would I do it again? Probably.

My brother was the same as yours throughout school and for years after. Fortunately for him he had a talent others don't, so when he finally grew up (in his 30s) he was able to start again and now earns megabucks. Sadly our DCs tend to use him as an excuse (well Uncle X turned out OK)

Only flaw I see in your OP. What if you move, with all the costs that entails, then he doesn't get a place at this good school? It is very hard not to be bitter and twisted thinking "if it wasn't for you we wouldn't have all this debt" if they still don't get on with it "after all you've done for them".

I think you are being a tad unrealistic, expecting a 9yo to show any enthusiasm at all for looking at houses you might like to buy.

He's nine, of course he doesn't understand all the complexities of grown up life.

You are totally OTT but you are also just like me! Don't worry about the extra curricular stuff. We have dropped everything for DS except cubs and piano.

Just focus on the academic and make a star chart with small rewards; then he knows the expectation of him is regular but finite.

Do not expect gratitude; you will not get it!

No, actually, I don't really want the hassle of moving. I'm not doing it for me, I'm doing it for us.

Thing is, DS IS his own man. Thankfully. If I really thought nothing could be done to prevent DS from turning into the rather disappointed middle aged man my DB is, I really wouldn't be arsed, either. See, DH and I turn out to have been rather similar at school. We both cottoned on pretty early about what 'mattered'. We both recognised that boredom sometimes comes with the territory when it comes to getting things achieved. Believe me, back in a 1971 primary school there was no attempt at 'fun and interesting'! By Y5 both of us were certainly beginning to recognise that the 'end result' was up to us, personally. Were we remarkably mature for our ages? Many of my fellow workmates actually tell me the same thing, perhaps along the lines of 'give me the child at 7 and I will show you the man'...- they were all people who felt that towards the end of primary, they had got their act together, and all speak of no nonsense parenting, the same they 'impose' on their own children.

fwiw, just about everything DS DOES deign to get stuck into, then suddenly find he's enjoyed because it has requires a little effort, earns frequent 'small and instant rewards', We have every yu-gi-oh/ pokemon card and gogo in existence. THEN you get into that thing where he won't do anything without material reward. It doesn't instil any 'You're doing this for YOU not Me', does it?

See, as for 'feeling under pressure', is that not what many private school parents actually pay for? They may not come right out with it but one thing I feel many private schools do seem to achieve is an ethos amongst their DCs that 'This is non-negotiable' when it comes to getting on with it. My friend's DSs who are the same age as mine and very similar in temperament and ability do do well in what they get stuck into because their schooling has trained them to understand that this is what needs to be done, be it 20 minutes guitar practise or their maths homework. They don't know it but they are being trained to take responsibility for their futures albeit in small increments: 9 is not too young. Many DCs are preparing for 11+ at 9.5, an exam the result of which may totally govern their academic future. They, like I at that age, know this. I don't have the cash to pay a battalion of private teachers to individually breath down my DSs' necks thus I have to 'provide the extras' largely in my freely given time and energy.

I just sometimes find it quite frustrating when the grain seems endlessly to fall on barren ground!

Finally, yes, littlefish, school isn't the be all and end all of life. Many have done as you have and we are now indeed lucky to be able to revisit old ground and make up such things as academic disaster due to idleness or immaturity or whatever, as adults. But boy, how much easier (and cheaper) it is to 'get it right' 1st time around.

Q: "You are the parent. You make the decisions. Let him get on with being a child. Stop pushing him. HE IS 9!"

Yes I am the parent, yes I am making the difficult decisions. Yes he is behaving every bit like a child, a thing he will remain for 9 more years yet, but no I won't stop 'pushing him'. Because I am the parent and know that without any pressure, DS1 would severely underachieve. He was clever enough to understand that IF he put some effort into say his maths, a) the teacher would stop nagging him (knowing that he wasn't working anywhere NEAR his best); and b) he'd be in the top group which confers prestige and a feeling of achievement. So he did.

As for going house-hunting alone- OK, but as long as you aren't one of those who then berate me for not involving the DSs in what is after all quite an upheaval for them as well! I got bagged for NOT taking DS1 around the 3 possible secondaries we were investigating, and this is his future HOME we're talking about, and we're talking just the one or two visits, mind!

Sorry I was replying after littlefish's of 22.17! Took a while to type with loads of interruptions!

I think the more pressure you put on children the more they are likely to rebel, sorry.

Take a step back and have confidence in your son. Support him, but don't push him. Help him to enjoy his childhood and his school work, but follow his lead.

Tell him you will love him no matter what he does in later life, or how many gcses he passes. And tell him again.

One of the most miserable adults I know got 4 a's at a level and got into cambridge. She has a fabulous job but is deeply lonely and unhappy.

life is not all about academic achievement, and the more you tell kids that is the more likely they are to fail.

( In my humble opinion)

good god gg

I would go to bed now and read your posts again tomorrow...try and see how you come across...

I think you are expecting your child to think like an adult and he wont and nor should he tbh.

It is hard when we do what we think is best for our children and they dont recognise it but one day they will. I have just moved my whole family to the other end of the country as I knew dd stood a high chance of ammounting to very little if we did not move. She likes where we live now, her life is so much happier and she knows that in herself. But if I say to her are you glad we moved she says no. The other week this really got to me as we have faced financial ruin, put our relationship on the line and left everyone we loved and knew to give dd the best start in life. It would be nice when she has her own kids if she came back to me and says "thanks mum I get it now" but before then I expect nothing.

And thanks to the last 3 posters who recognise that I'm a FRUSTRATED WOMAN!

I just want to do the best we can for the DSs. Realistically, I really don't expect gratitude- just a bit of neutral 'compliance' would be nice! The signs that there is some understanding that I'm really not Nasty Mummy but there is a point to all this. I also believe that we will see a leap in maturity sometime, some-when!

As for catchments, we will be 'safe' once we move- AND we do rent so it's not quite the hassle of buying, but nonetheless... I so don't expect him to whoop with joy at the next ensuite he looks at, really! But I guess I would like to see a tad of understanding that ONCE he gets stuck into something, he gets a sense of achievement out of it by his own ready admission, so I don't have to go through the same fandango EVERY time I say 'OK, get your karate/cubs kit on', or when his homework which I've sweated blood to get him to do in a manner other than 'slapdash' earns him a housepoint!

Sometimes the effort makes me want to be Bad Mummy and say 'Eff it, go to the local sink school sunshine, if you really can't be arsed!'.. But I wouldn't, of course.

Quite, twinset.

I think you should stop expecting him to be grateful. A 9yo doesn't understand and isn't capable of understanding your adult take on life and particularly not deferred gratification at one remove. Complicated enough for an adult let alone a child!

Take him house viewing/don't take him house viewing but stop expecting him to be impressed with your devotion. Not fair, not realistic and likely to drive a very big wedge between you.

Honestly, I'm sure you are a very caring mother but these posts make you should like a frightful nag.

He is NOT your brother, btw - don't punish him for your brother's/your parents' perceived shortcomings.

Tbh I think the reason dd works so hard at school, despite often being ill and in physical pain, is not because I have put a lot of pressure on her, certainly not because I have ever given her any other rewards than a smile. (When I said small rewards I wasn't actually thinking of material ones.)

I think it is because I have always tried to show her (without putting it in words) that learning is its own reward. I have tried to make it exciting for my dcs, something we do together because it's fun, the things we talk about over the dinner table because it's exciting when one of us has found out something new. Not because I have ulterior thoughts of them passing exams or getting a well paid job. Those thoughts come later.

The result has been that for dd reading and learning has become something she can escape into away from other pressures of her world.

Ds is not quite there yet when it comes to the reading (he is 8), but he already shows the same interest in the world around him and that to me is the essential.

If you worry too much about your ds's future, could you be missing the sense of fun in his learning?

(I need a mum like you to make me go to bed, am so tired that 'should' crept in there by mistake!)

But even so, I get exactly the same of having to nag them to get going, to go to a class that I know they will enjoy. Normal, normal, normal.

Dd has been furious with me because I turned down a chance for us to emigrate, though a large part of that decision was based on what would be best for her health. Can't really expect a 12-yo to be grateful for that sort of thing though, particularly as it brought her to face with some uncomfortable truths about herself. Am just going to have to ride the storm and accept that we took that decision as adults and it is not her job to make us feel good about it.

I sympathise GG; I'm in the same position. I have bent over backwards to give my DC all the advantages that I never had (over-compensating, moi?). Are the little blighters grateful? Are they heck!

I'm afraid that our kids aren't mini-me. They will forge their own paths (or not, as the case may be).
Try to focus on the good points, not the bad.

If you want thanks and an adult appreciation of your efforts, talk to dh, not ds.

good grief, it all sounds so stressful, gauss. It sounds like, in part, your ds is just reacting to all that stress you are causing.

I even have to nag my 10 year old ds to put clean socks on. He wears socks to bed, I put out clean ones for him to put on in the morning, then he leaves them upstairs. I tell him to go back up and put them on. He comes back down with them on; I then have to check his ankles, to see if he has put the clean ones on over the dirty ones, because he can't be bothered to take the dirty ones off.

I am not doing that for my own benefit! But my ds is not going to be grateful. That's kids though!

GG - you sound really stressed about this. If your DS lacks motivation then come up with some tactics to help him and implement them.

And don't take him to see houses until you've found one you like.

You may not agree, but I can't see how you can get any child to do something on the basis that it will improve their adult life.

It's no fun being worried about your child, and of course you want the best for him, but surely that also means you want the best childhood for him too.