Grr. LONG ALERT! Ever wonder why you bother when you bend over backwards to help DCs achieve their best- and they can't be bothered??

[gaussgirl]

OK, I know I will be flamed her about being all 'middle class and pushy'..

but: I am happy to say I've calmed down a bit now but on Sunday I was hopping! Situation is that we know we HAVE to do something about getting into catchment for the desired secondary before Oct 09 so DS1, now in Y5, can attend.

School in question, having done my homework at great length is the best fit for him. It will involve a move of 1 1/4 miles, across a couple of fields to 'get in' but DH and I feel we should do this for the sake of his (and DS2, to follow)'s education, thus their future, thus their life chances (which, all being well, = happiness).

Thing is, DS1, 9 1/2 just CANNOT BE ARSED to do ANYTHING! All extra curricular activities are invariably greeted with a groan -though once he gets there he's fine; be it karate, cubs or piano (in school); gently applied advice about how to perhaps 'go the extra mile - nay INCH'! in homework, results in huffs, book 'chucking' down, sulking (he will not take 'help' from anyone save perhaps his school teacher...), the "I can't DO this/ I'm RUBBISH at this!" stuff cannot be assisted without the huffs as detailed above. It is SO frustrating!

I guess I come at it from a couple of angles: One is my mother, though she loves DS1 dearly, has casually and accurately observed that DS1 is very like my DB was at that age. DB, coming as we did from a different era (we're both in our late 40s!) wasn't 'pushed' at all. Rubbish secondary modern, no pressure to apply himself to ANYTHING that didn't take his fancy, no 'extension activities' of any description, us (well, me!) having to BEG to do music lessons, Brownies etc. Trouble is, DB's turned into at worst a bitter man, at best one who recognises that he's achieved nothing near his potential in life- OK, OK, how many of us do? But he's MILES off. He drives a delivery van for a living, a job he dislikes- but entirely of his own admission, he knows he lacks the discipline to do anything about it and does kind of blame our parents for NOT making apply himself, get stuck in- or send him to a better school! I do recall that where mum and dad DID push him it was hell's own job to get compliance and once it became apparent that his school WAS rubbish, he was completely entrenched in it, at 13 and more or less unshiftable. Also, parents just didn't have the - ahem, 'choice' of today. You went to 'the local'.

A second issue is that in 10 years time there just will not BE the low paid manual work available to the slackers- and I mean that: DCs who by all measures are capable of more but who just can't be bothered.

Now, I guess what I want to give DS1 is opportunity. At its basest, if I do what I can, at the end of the day, he cannot turn around and cast that sort of blame on us because we are trying to do our best by him. I am hoping all those DCs who grow up to 'thank' their parents for 'making' them do things are right!

BUT god, it's so hard when you're trogging around housing estates looking at property with a constant barrage of boredom coming at you from the back seat as you look at those 'catchment' homes- and I mean one or 2, not hundreds! When you're gritting your teeth even harder whilst you SUGGEST two three word sentences do NOT constitute 'a descriptive paragraph about...'. I SO don't want to get into the 'We're doing this entirely for YOU!' stuff- to an almost 10 year old, but sometimes I feel like shouting it!

How much harder would it be if we were thinking private, watching 10 grand a year being casually thrown away??! I do have a friend who does send her 2 private who actually says one reason is so they can't throw any blame at her if they underachieve academically once they're adults.

Finally, I guess the most useful responses would be from people with adult DCs who had actually run the gamut not The Smugs telling me how much DD, aged 7 LOVES her bassoon lessons and can't WAIT to go to Kumon! Yes, DCs should be allowed time to veg and 'do nothing'. Believe me, mine get PLENTY of that- it's the bits where some effort might COUNT where the indifference lies that get to me!

Was it all worth it, come 18?

I see some 9 year olds who are not, shall we say, making the most of the money their parents are spending on their education.

I see some incredibly motivated 9 year olds who make the best of everything they do, have limitless energy.

Most are somewhere in the middle.

My children have a very privileged life with a lot of parental input but I would be quite sad if my children were notably grateful for the things we do for them, I would think I had failed somewhat.

The things we do for them, we do unconditionally. To have them be grateful would mean that they saw those things as having conditions attached. That is not what good parenting is about, in my book. It is about being there for them and offering your steadfast support regardless of what they do or don't do.

I think you need to relax right down or you will drive your children away from you. No-one wants to live their lives in that kind of pressure keg - I certainly don't and I am 44 not 9yo!

I can understand your frustration gg, but you seem to have got it into your head that your ds will turn out to be exactly like your brother on the basis that he reminds your mother of your brother as a child. This seems an excessively negative way to view your son and it's worrying to think that he might pick up on this and resent you for it. It's as if you've already decided he will be a failure if left to his own devices.

I think that you sound frustrated at just how difficult it is to do the best for your kids...it really is. I know from personal experience that it is an impossible equation, ie I did nothing as a child, therefore i want my child to be able to do a lot of activities, but i also want them to understand how lucky they are and what it is like not to be in this position of privilege.

its impossible! by no. 2 i was really careful, if they didn't like it after 6 weeks i stopped doing it.

All you can do is give them the opportunity, you can't miake them do it. Oh and re the house, just choose and take them to look at the one you have choosen. Life is stressful enough!

Some kids don't seem to make the best of their opportunities do they? Well, let's be honest a lot of adults are like that. It is very frustrating though if you're a bright person, interested in everything, always wlling to put in the effort.
Sometimes my DS astonishes me by his lacklustre response to stuff that I'd have given my right hand to do at his age.
I think the thing to focus on is what does ring his bell - if I had to write a list of what really gets my DS fired up it would actually be large but just not full of the obvious stuff iyswim

I am realising the hard way that our DCs are not necessarily mini versions of ourselves. I have 3 and NOT ONE has inherited any crumb of my work ethic and it is so hard. They do not enjoy school in the way I did and are quite happy to produce mediocre work. I always put my all into everything and still do.

They are teenagers and there is a history of depression in both sides of our family so I am easing off. It is hard as I too do not want them to waste their chances. Just have to hope that it all works out in the end for them.

I feel like producing a document for them to sign - "I did tell you what it would be like if you did not revise". Sign here!

Actually, to be fair on me- I don't think I ever said I expect unmitigated gratitude from DS1!

What I want is for that leap of maturity to happen where all the pressure WE'RE under to, like all of us, 'do the right thing' by the DCs isn't counterpointed by their complete disinterest! Doing what we need to get to get DS into the best fit school for him will be stressful and expensive enough for us; it would be nice for me if I didn't have that nagging doubt of AM I wasting our time here? If he really CAN'T be arsed, should I recognise that my DS IS one of life's slackers therefore the nearest school is the one for him regardless of suitability?

Of course, I won't do that- that would be 'spitting the dummy' as the Australians say..

As for firing DS's imagination etc, believe me, I put a lot of focus on doing just that. I believe I do put a lot of time and energy into the DSs- as the mum, that's my job. Part of doing that job is also the 'non-fun' bits which include instilling a sense of perseverance into the boys. They can't start cubs/football/judo/trampolining whatever for a WEEK then expect to quit (I'm always shocked by the number who you do only see once at such activities!). Mine HAVE to do a term at any activity- and we haven't quitted one yet after that term, though as I say I do get the moans and groans practically every time I announce it's time to go because like many DCs they'd rather perch on their rears in front of the TV or on their gameboys! I DO wonder whether if I didn't 'make' them do anything, just waiting for THEM to 'beg' ME to do stuff, they'd be keener, but I suspect that they'd just do nothing! The reward is just about every time they return (rather, are fetched!) from the activity, they've invariably enjoyed it.

As for pressure: Please define. Isn't 'forcing' DCs to get their shoes on, teeth brushed etc in time for school 'pressure'? Isn't fulfilling one's agreement with the school that one WILL make time for homework to be done then ensuring it DOES get done to something near the DC's ability 'pressure'?

See, my DCs are middle of the road. They aren't very forceful (unlike me??), they could just sit at the back and cruise- or get overlooked- as they aren't SEN, they aren't G&T. As such, I also feel it's my job to instil that self-evident virtue, if you like, of putting in some effort. As I have already said, DS1 did respond to my suggestion that his maths teacher would 'get off his back' AND he'd be promoted into a higher, more prestigious maths group if he just quitted messing about, got ON with the work and homework and demonstrated to the teacher he was doing so. Voila. Happy, promoted son, certificate in assembly etc. Great. But I cannot get DS1 to apply that across the board! Every time he's faced with homework that requires a little bit more effort to raise his work from OK to better, we get flung books, sulking- even tears. At 9! THEN once all has calmed down, DS will return to his work, do it, ask me to check it- then gets a housepoint. WHEN will that association fall into place??!

Finally, no I don't expect my 9 year old to pen paeans of praise to What Mummy Does For Me. I would hope that at 30 with his own DCs he will look back with an element of understanding that what we do now was actually for his benefit. As for thinking some sort of 'praise' from a DC is parental failure due to the assumption that 'help' is conditional- thereby hangs what I heard referred to in a broadsheet paper last week, 'the stench of entitlement'. Actually, I DO expect my DCs, somewhere along the line to see that we are a team and we do what we can for each other. I have my responsibilities, they have theirs.

Now I have to go and look at a house in catchment.

Of course he isn't grateful, because he has absolutely no concept that it's possible that his life could be other than it is now, with his motivated, loving, ever so slightly pushy mother watching his back. He doesn't know that you are bending over backwards for him - to him you're just being mum.

He doesn't understand that some kids have parents who aren't bothered about their futures.

He certainly doesn't understand that some kids have parents who tell them off for doing their homework, parents who can't be bothered to get out of bed before they go to school, let alone make them breakfast.

By the way, I went to a grammar school. I did no preparation whatsoever for the 11+. All those kids who were hot housed at prep schools or by their parents struggled horribly at school. They weren't really up to the work and it showed.

My post just crossed with your last one.

You really do need to chill out. Sorry but you do.

"What I want is for that leap of maturity to happen where all the pressure WE'RE under to, like all of us, 'do the right thing' by the DCs isn't counterpointed by their complete disinterest!"

That "leap of maturity" as you put it will occur when your son is um, mature. He's nine. You really do expect far too much.

As for homework, whether we did homework or not was a matter for us. My mum would simply point out to us that it was not her who had to go to school and explain why the homework wasn't done.

Write a note saying "Dear Teacher, DS was given time and space to do this task but refused to do so. Please feel free to use whatever sanction you consider necessary. At home he is losing his pocket money for a week/not allowed to play with his DS etc etc" - that will sort him out.

"stench of entitlement" is a phrase I would use about a bored trustafarian 19 year old who can't be arsed to get a summer job between Uppingham and Durham because he knows daddy will fork out for a quiet life, not a frustrated nine year old who doesn't like homework.

Sorry to anyone else reading this for my multiple posts but really lady, get a grip.

Oh dear. You know these things do operate on a sliding scale right? The more incensed you become at his lack of interest in guitar practice the less he practises the guitar?

Also you know it's generational, right? In effect you are saying:

In my day, we weren't like this. In my day we worked hard for what we wanted, we didn't loaf about like you lot expecting the world to fall into our laps.

That conversation has been going on for ever and ever and ever.

I feel for you but you need to step back. You have to demonstrate all the qualities you want your son to have - you have to NOT expect him to demonstrate them. Otherwise it's all utterly joyless.

You have to say things like, 'You know, I thought I'd never get the kitchen floor clean, but now I've done it. Look at it! I'm really pleased I bothered' - then you go outside and bang your head against the wall.

Demonstrate a good work ethic. Take pleasure in your own rewards. Shut up about what he's doing or not doing.
The more you go on about that, the further away you are going to get from what you want.

You are doing your best by him - he's going at some point to work out how to do the best for himself. Parenting is kind of about that, and about the hoping they do, but maybe they won't.

It's hard though. I want my children to take pride in what they do and to do their best in all things. I want that for myself too. I don't always achieve it though. Sometimes I'm crap and a bit lazy, so are my dcs.

Also if I went round for dinner at a friends house and she emerged red faced and hot and said

look at what I've cooked. I've been here all day, it's been hard work, I've done it for you because I like you and I want you to enjoy being here, I want you to eat this meal and really appreciate it because I've bloody tried hard, and now you sit down and eat please.

Would you enjoy that meal? Nope. It'd be dreadful. If you were 9 you might even say - I never asked you to go to all this effort! As a grown-up you'd cringe and say 'Oh right' and sit there finding it difficult to swallow.

It's a bit like that.

I can understand your frustrations. I have always been fairly driven and wanting to do well at things. My children don't have the same drive yet but they are still quite young!

In your position I would do as you are doing and move to the catchment for the school you like. I would ask your son which after school clubs he enjoys best and maybe just choose 2 to continue with. Maybe he needs more time to unwind without structured activity. If he really isn't trying or enjoying the piano maybe you should drop it..he would be able to take up an instrument easily at secondary school. If your son groans when its time to go to cubs try not to react..maybe he is trying to get a reaction. (my DS is very good at winding me up in other ways)

With homework I think the most important thing is to help ones children to get into a regular routine of doing it, and not at the last minute. Then things will be easier at secondary school. When I was at secondary school I was a perfectionist and sat over my homework for ages..but ended up having to always rush to make deadlines. I hope when my children are older I will be able to encourage them to just get homework done promptly to the best of their ability.

If you have any real worries about your sons achievement at school maybe you could speak to the teacher and see if she can encourage him to try harder or whatever..he will probably be more receptive to some one who isn't Mum. Then you can enjoy spending time with him rather than having to worry so much.

Good post ahundredtimes.

GG - if you go back over your own posts, can you not see that underlying your words is an assumption that, left to his own devices, your DS will amount to nothing? I'm sure that's not what you really think of him, but the assumption is there nonetheless!

I remember your earlier threads, Gaussgirl. What catchment are you trying to get into, as a matter of interest? (I live locally.)

Moles is right - and it's not a good assumption for him to be picking up on is it?

In fact you may be creating what you are going so far out of your way to avoid?

Parenting is scary like that.

Have just read OPs last post when you have said your DS doesn't want to go to activities because he would rather watch TV or play with the gameboy. Is there any way you could limit time spent on these..as surely there must be something else he can do at home rather than watching TV playing on the gameboy.

If he only has one hour of TV a day or one hour on the gameboy he would know that he wouldn't be missing out on TV/gameboy time by going to cubs as he would have the hour of TV/gameboy before going or after coming back.

Or you could say 'I really don't want you to do Judo. It's not helpful, it's a silly waste of time' and see if he rushes to put his name on the list.

Tee hee!

fircone, it's Thornden.

One small point I do want to make is that I am very calm in front of the DSs. I explain carefully the WHYs of things, I ask them- or perhaps DS1, how he felt when he DID put some effort in and was duly rewarded, and he invariably says he felt proud. I only shout when it IS 8.29 and they've taken 15 minutes to get around to cleaning teeth which I told them to do at 8.15, with a time check...etc. I truly don't feel they appreciate my frustration, nor do I want them to at this age. I know it is MY frustration- and yes, I'd agree that I do fear that if I took the laissez faire approach, whilst I perhaps couldn't go as far as not limiting TV and gameboy time, I should tell 'em there's your homework, get on with it, it SO would never get done, and DS1 WOULD leave school having achieved nothing! I will be decried for 'having no faith' in him. Well, the evidence points to a DC who appears to benefit from some pushing. So actually my faith in him coming to his own realisation that 'effort reaps reward' is perhaps a bit strained!

Anyway, with homework, when we have the teary tantrums, I carefully close the book, explain that HE will have to tell the teacher why the homework isn't done, that I WILL help him once he puts in some effort, and now we'll leave it til you're READY, dearest. Trouble is, we are talking state primary here. There ARE no sanctions for undone homework. Seriously! Just perhaps a shrug from the teacher who, having enough on his plate, is far more likely to put his focus on the DCs who CAN be bothered! That's where private DCs have the edge. The rewards and disincentives are far more immediate and 'cause and effect', in my experience.

As for laying off the after school activities, they amount to 2 1/2 hours a week, all up. Not a huge ask, especially as ONCE he's got stuck in, he gets pleasure from them! He likes his keyboard as he recognises that he's done well but has progressed as far as he will with the school group lessons. How about taking it a bit further? A half hour private lesson a week? Noooo! That might require some effort!

gaussgirl - I went to a private school,did well at A levels, failed to get into Cambridge and gave up. Having been pushed for years and years I couldn't be arsed to do it for myself. Ended up with a mediocre degree and not at all the career I had intended. Now I drift through life but unlike your DB, I do it happily.

No-one, not you, not your DH, not the school can make your son work. Only he can do that. And it has to come from him. Mine has just started at secondary and (thank the lord for miracles) is fired with enthusiasm and working hard for the first time ever. This is a state secondary.

So private education is no guarantee that your DC won't f up later And It doesn't mean that paying means you get the best overall education for your* specific chil.

Gaussgirl, there is detention for homework not completed on time at ds's state school - in Thornden catchment!

no, Orm, I'm very aware of that! I just envy my friend that she and the private school form a united front in the non-negotiability of, say, homework.

And because no one has a crystal ball and can foresee that a good, solid academic record might result in underachievement in the long run, it doesn't mean I can absolve myself of the responsibility of trying to get my DSs into the best fit school I can and to strongly encourage them to get stuck in/have a go re homework, schoolwork, after school activities.

I can't MAKE DS work, I can only do what I can to help him see the advantages of doing the best one is able to.

See, as someone with A levels, it would be no great problem for you to step into higher ed again right now, bar the cost. I am glad you, unlike my DB, are happy with the course your life has taken. You had and have choices. A modern youngster leaving school with 2 poor GCSEs has practically none, thus if my DSs are capable of more, that's what I want for them.

which one, fircone? Just the 1st initial will do! Personally it annoys me that primaries set homework- then fail to mark it or 'punish' non-compliance!

Oh homework is non-negotiable at DS#1's secondary school. He's already had one detention . Which is great because he no gets to take the consequences without my any longer having to frogmarch a reluctant DS into school because he knows he will get into trouble.

Yes things are harder for school leavers now. But I think that stressing yourself and him, whilst understandable, acheives nothing.

I don't want to go back into education. I'm doing Ok with what I have. It's just not what I expected that's all. My DB did very well at school and is now in a career he loves and is doing well. He still resents my parents though - over many things to do with his childhood. Some people are just like that.