Grr. LONG ALERT! Ever wonder why you bother when you bend over backwards to help DCs achieve their best- and they can't be bothered??

[gaussgirl]

OK, I know I will be flamed her about being all 'middle class and pushy'..

but: I am happy to say I've calmed down a bit now but on Sunday I was hopping! Situation is that we know we HAVE to do something about getting into catchment for the desired secondary before Oct 09 so DS1, now in Y5, can attend.

School in question, having done my homework at great length is the best fit for him. It will involve a move of 1 1/4 miles, across a couple of fields to 'get in' but DH and I feel we should do this for the sake of his (and DS2, to follow)'s education, thus their future, thus their life chances (which, all being well, = happiness).

Thing is, DS1, 9 1/2 just CANNOT BE ARSED to do ANYTHING! All extra curricular activities are invariably greeted with a groan -though once he gets there he's fine; be it karate, cubs or piano (in school); gently applied advice about how to perhaps 'go the extra mile - nay INCH'! in homework, results in huffs, book 'chucking' down, sulking (he will not take 'help' from anyone save perhaps his school teacher...), the "I can't DO this/ I'm RUBBISH at this!" stuff cannot be assisted without the huffs as detailed above. It is SO frustrating!

I guess I come at it from a couple of angles: One is my mother, though she loves DS1 dearly, has casually and accurately observed that DS1 is very like my DB was at that age. DB, coming as we did from a different era (we're both in our late 40s!) wasn't 'pushed' at all. Rubbish secondary modern, no pressure to apply himself to ANYTHING that didn't take his fancy, no 'extension activities' of any description, us (well, me!) having to BEG to do music lessons, Brownies etc. Trouble is, DB's turned into at worst a bitter man, at best one who recognises that he's achieved nothing near his potential in life- OK, OK, how many of us do? But he's MILES off. He drives a delivery van for a living, a job he dislikes- but entirely of his own admission, he knows he lacks the discipline to do anything about it and does kind of blame our parents for NOT making apply himself, get stuck in- or send him to a better school! I do recall that where mum and dad DID push him it was hell's own job to get compliance and once it became apparent that his school WAS rubbish, he was completely entrenched in it, at 13 and more or less unshiftable. Also, parents just didn't have the - ahem, 'choice' of today. You went to 'the local'.

A second issue is that in 10 years time there just will not BE the low paid manual work available to the slackers- and I mean that: DCs who by all measures are capable of more but who just can't be bothered.

Now, I guess what I want to give DS1 is opportunity. At its basest, if I do what I can, at the end of the day, he cannot turn around and cast that sort of blame on us because we are trying to do our best by him. I am hoping all those DCs who grow up to 'thank' their parents for 'making' them do things are right!

BUT god, it's so hard when you're trogging around housing estates looking at property with a constant barrage of boredom coming at you from the back seat as you look at those 'catchment' homes- and I mean one or 2, not hundreds! When you're gritting your teeth even harder whilst you SUGGEST two three word sentences do NOT constitute 'a descriptive paragraph about...'. I SO don't want to get into the 'We're doing this entirely for YOU!' stuff- to an almost 10 year old, but sometimes I feel like shouting it!

How much harder would it be if we were thinking private, watching 10 grand a year being casually thrown away??! I do have a friend who does send her 2 private who actually says one reason is so they can't throw any blame at her if they underachieve academically once they're adults.

Finally, I guess the most useful responses would be from people with adult DCs who had actually run the gamut not The Smugs telling me how much DD, aged 7 LOVES her bassoon lessons and can't WAIT to go to Kumon! Yes, DCs should be allowed time to veg and 'do nothing'. Believe me, mine get PLENTY of that- it's the bits where some effort might COUNT where the indifference lies that get to me!

Was it all worth it, come 18?

Gaussgirl, I think where the problem lies is that you want your son to have a work ethic and apply himself in all areas in life. But this is not essential in order to become a professional and trying to have an all encompassing work ethic if he is not that type of person will just cause massive stress.

If he wants to go to University, all he needs to do is a bit of work to get some GCSE passes and some A levels. He just needs to focus on getting those; he does not need a general work ethic in every area of life, and having one will not make him happier!

It is not essential to participate in competitive sport/play an instrument/be an exceptional cook/be able to grow vegetables/play chess/dance/act in a play/knit/carve wood/climb a mountain. Yes, these are nice extras, but none of them are essential for university entrance or a happy life. Yet there are many parents who will insist a child's life is incomplete without one of the above activities.

Your son just sounds like a normal child. If you are worried that he is not doing well enough at school, then he should do a bit more for that specific goal, but he doesn't need a general work ethic!

MillyR, I've figured it out. The OP is actually giving serious contemplation to the potential contents of her son's UCAS form personal statement. At nine years old. That's why she wants him to do worthy activities.

I've seen it all now.

By the way the son with the incredible work ethic only uses it within the school curriculum. He goes to a school where there are opporttunities to do anything and everything. He of course chooses to do nothing, he even manages to get out of compusory non-curriculun activities. Sometimes he comes home from school and sleeps for an hour [hmmm]. But his teachers still think he is the bees knees.

MillyR is right these things can be achieved without participation in everything possible.

To be fair to gg, it's more than likely that she's venting frustration here that she can't and won't vent in front of her son, for obvious reasons.

You're doing what you can to maximise his life chances (although simply coming from a middle class background means his life chances will be a lot better than most kids, whether you take a laissez-faire approach or not). I find it a bit distasteful to be so obvious about the class issue, but I suppose it is a fact and no good will come of masking it.

I still think that the "without my intervention he'll turn out a waster" assumption is potentially harmful, but hey-ho, worse things happen.

Yes, it certainly is a lot easier to get it 'right' the first time, but, as others have pointed out, it is possible to go back into education at any time. I'm 40 and doing the degree I 'should' have done when I was 18. I'm getting a lot more out of it than I would have done at that age.

I totally agree Molesworth. I went off to uni at 18 and although I did well (2:1) and enjoyed my studies, being at uni at that age taught me far more about life than it did about philosophy or English Literature.

I went back to uni part time at 24 to do the GDL and LPC and finished last year. I am now in the career I could have been doing five years ago if I had chosen law at that point. Do I regret that? Absolutely not.

I have a few friends (with teenage boys) who are experiencing similar frustrations with their children. These boys have many opportunities, and a great deal of parental input/support. They can be hugely lacking in motivation and ambition when it comes to anything that 'matters' concerning their future. They are only motivated by what interests them, and it is mostly not achievement or academic success. They live very comfortably now - nice homes, money for holidays/meals out/extracurricular stuff/ipods/mobile phones, etc.

Will be interesting to see the penny drop when they are out on their own, and realise what one must do to have the lifestyle provided by their parents (that they have taken completely for granted).

One friend was seriously considering having her ds work in a factory for the summer so he'd understand/experience the future career he was likely to have if he continued drifting through school.

I agree with those who say don't get overly anxious and pressure your ds as he is only 9. But there does come a point where focus, application and perseverence comes into play. Very tricky balance.

This is starting to sound like a 'Xenia' thread now, isn't it? All this chat about work hard/go to the 'right' schools/train for a lucrative profession - all so you can afford a nice life....

There are a couple of points here that I think you still want to address, Gaussgirl.

The first is the leap between "my brother is unhappy in his unqualified job as a delivery driver" ro "if my son got an unqualififed job he would be unhappy". You don't know that. Your son is not your brother. My brother got a job loading cars onto ferries: this was possibly not what his doting parents had in mind when they dragged him round Greek temples, but it was right for him. The fact that it would have made me, or his father, very unhappy is not to the point. He has had a very successful life doing his job and is now studying for his captain's certificate.

And there will still be unqualified jobs, or moderately skilled jobs, in any conceivable society; we cannot live without hospital porters and dustbin men. And not everyone is going to be unhappy being a hospital porter or a dustbin man.

The second is that most people have not become who they are going to be at the age of 9. Some who work tremendously hard and have a wonderful work ethos at 9 will be burnt out at 20, or simply be turning lazy. I see a lot of unfulfilled hopes as a university teacher. Others develop slowly but come into their own in secondary school. He may find himself when he is 12- that's still plenty of time to get himself sorted.

Thirdly, there is nothing that says that a 9-year-old has to do two extra-curricular activities, or indeed any organised extra-curricular activities, to do well later in life. I would wait until he asks to do them. I agree that once he had, I would probably make him wait a term before giving something up- in fact, I have forced dd to wait a year on occasion; but it's one thing not to give into something they ask, it's another to be shocked that they do ask. It's many years before he has to fill in a UCAS form, and tbh they are not going to be at all interested in any activities he was doing in primary school.

Fourthly, nothing wrong in forcing him to work, but you do sound shocked that he should try to get out of it. Isn't that what small boys have always been like? And isn't our job to make sure that whatever needs get done gets done without being surprised that small boys talk like small boys.

As for the gratitude thing, I appreciate that you have not said that you expect him to be grateful. I think while they're at this age, we have to take it one step further and not be surprised if they express ingratitude or (even more annoying) indifference.

I did find dd trying over the emigration thing (earlier post): first she refused to give any proper arguments for her stand, then when the decision was taken (partly for her benefit) she was very angry with me. But what she was expressing to some extent was her frustration at not being able to know what was the best thing to do, not feeling mature enough to deal with the whole thing. And I had to recognise that I am the adult, I have to take decisions and accept that it isn't her job to make me feel good about them.

You open him up to opportunities by suggesting them and supporting him if he wants to take them up-however you can't make him take the opportunities. It is frustrating if you have a DC who is laid back. My DS has his UCAS form in now-for 2 years I have been trying him to do things that will look good on his personal statement-he has refused every suggestion! He plays computer games and hangs around with his friends-it doesn't give a lot of scope! His brothers have lots of interests.You have to accept them as they are-you can't do it for them!

you sound extremely stressed, gauss, to an extent where it could have a negative effect on the whole family.

Is there anything you could do, anyone you could talk to, to lessen the pressure you are putting on yourself?

You may behave calmly to your son but there is such a strong tone of disappointment and irritation towards your son that I just cannot imagine he doesn't pick up a lot of it.

Unless your local school is a failing schoo I would relax - have you not thought about a halfway house an providing top up tuition as and when required.

The biggest influence on a childs achievement is their parents and immediate peer group. Yes I know some schools offer wider opportunties than others and statistical have better grades etc.

He does seem to do and awful lot - do you give him a choice in these activities.

FWIW - I teach in a middles class catchment area. Both DH and I left school with not much and have been quite sucessful in chosen areas. I can see you frustration but its far too early to write him off!!!!

Well I stressed out unnecessarily about DD and a talk she had to give today. Having done what I considered to be no work on it, she did it and came out with the top grade possible. Helps she has a 'dramatic manner' I suppose. Doesn't help my case but thank goodness she achieved what she should have done.

Keep repeating 'Trust them' 'Trust them'...

GG, can I suggest a change in tack?
This thread has been all about the relationship between you and DS. There has been precious little written about your DH/DP. Thinking about the seven stages of man, has it got to the stage where mummy has to release the apron strings and let dad take over as role model?

(I hope this doesn't sound like a veiled criticism BTW; the switch in loyalties definitely happened in our family around this age.)

Don't be so convinced that a private school with sanctions for not doing homework would work.

Ds loathes colouring in. His teacher gives house points for homework, and you can't get 3 unless it's all coloured in. Most of the mums at the gate have admitted they help.

Ds always does extra - he might write all the names of the pictures underneath or something - looking up ones he doesn't know in a dictionary. Probably takes longer than colouring.

Ds's teacher told him unless he started colouring in he would only get 2 house points. Ds without missing a beat said "okay, that's fair" and continued not to colour in. But he also stopped doing the little extra bits to impress the teacher.

I was once told that I would not be promoted unless I did x,y,z. My boss was a bully, and I strongly suspected that even if I did x,y,z I would not be promoted. So just like ds I said "okay, I'm pretty happy where I am" and smiled and thanked him.

Ds's state junior school (not far from where you are, Gaussgirl) gives lunchtime detentions for non-completion of homework. Fair enough.

Quite. It'd be a huge help if the school WERE a bit 'heavier' on ensuring the work THEY set WAS completed, to be honest!

Where are you cory, approx?

Clearly this is all about class. You are worried that if your 9 year old doesn't start acting like some super-keen graduate trainee at PWC right now, he'll end up in a working class job like your brother.

A. He's nine, you are expecting far too much from him in terms of attitude and maturity.

B. He's not your brother.

C. State primaries are not inevitably crap and lax about homework.

D. Private schools are not all ace and brilliant at making every single child a genius who earns a million by the time they are 30.

E. This is your obsession, not his. And if you carry on nagging and stressing he will pick up on it and may well rebel. Especially when he's a teenager and realises the fastest way to wind up mother is to talk in a working class accent and be a bin man. (There is NOTHING wrong with being working class, btw, before anyone jumps on me, but it's clearly gaussgirl's key issue.)

Btw, my sister rebelled against our academically-excellent independent school, walked out before even taking GCSEs much to my mother's despair. Spent a good few years doing important but poorly-paid jobs that wouldn't impress a pushy middle class parent. Then decided she wanted a bit more power to make things happen, went back to study, gained a degree and professional qualifications and is doing really well. Of course she could have got there a lot earlier if she hadn't rebelled, but she wasn't ready for it. And all the life experience she has gained makes her ten times as good at her job as a new graduate who knows very little about real life.

Gaussgirl, I am concerned that you are stressed out and that you don't seem to like your son. I am sure you love him, but do you like him? Do you enjoy his company? Do you spend time doing fun things together?

We all worry about what will become of our children in the future, but I think you have to consider the impact all of this worry is having on your family now. It can't be making him happy to be always doing stuff he doesn't want to do, and it clearly isn't making you happy.

My brother threw everything up-left university and did manual work. He went back in the end and has done very well-when he chose. They do it their own way and time. Stressed mothers don't help the situation!

Actually, GG, I think you are doing just fine with your DS and he sounds completely normal - well maybe with a little too much 'teenage' attitude to life, but still. And if he genuinely enjoys the activities but is just too lazy to go, I'd make him go, yes.

Maybe you should find something that you and him enjoy doing together, so it's not always you pushing him and him resisting?

Why is homework so important in Primary school anyway? I just can't see the point of it - it's usually just something they've made up to pacify the parents who don't think a school's any good if it doesn't set homework rather than anything that's actually of any value.

And if he doesn't want to do "activities" then why should he? I have one who would be doing something every second she's awake and one who plays football but doesn't want to do anything else. Both are fine - they are very different people with very different needs.

Interestingly, the no activities child is actually the bright, high achieving one, while the "filling the unforgiving minute" child is the bright/average one.

He sounds a typical boy to me. I should just enjoy him as he is-not waste time worrying about the future and trying to mould him into something he isn't.

Coming to this thread late on GG...., but I do agree with most of the posters that when the child is only nine, you must enjoy him for what he is, not what you would like him to become. I have a nine year old boy too. I also have three close friends who have looked death in the face this last year with cancer, and the bottom line is, what is important in life? It's enjoying your children and having a laugh with them, being on their side and supporting them, as life unfolds. I recognise the fears you have for your child's future - all mothers deep down have fears of some sort. I also know how frustrating it is when they seem to shrug off opportunities which I as a child would have leapt at. But the best advice I can say is - do the house move if you want to, but leave your son out of it, and leave him alone if he doesn't want to do after school stuff. Mine watches loads of Disney Channel, not National geographic, but hey, he's happy and loving and that beats all the tension and the battles, which, are all self-inflicted.

GG - Along with the rest I think you should calm down!

Move if you can, if thats what you want to do. You are lucky you have the opportunity.

Otherwise let him go to the nearer school

But let your 9 yo be 9 fgs

You cant expect him to see the long view in the same way you can. Also he doesnt necessarily want the same things out of life as you want for him - YOU cant live his life