Grr. LONG ALERT! Ever wonder why you bother when you bend over backwards to help DCs achieve their best- and they can't be bothered??

[gaussgirl]

OK, I know I will be flamed her about being all 'middle class and pushy'..

but: I am happy to say I've calmed down a bit now but on Sunday I was hopping! Situation is that we know we HAVE to do something about getting into catchment for the desired secondary before Oct 09 so DS1, now in Y5, can attend.

School in question, having done my homework at great length is the best fit for him. It will involve a move of 1 1/4 miles, across a couple of fields to 'get in' but DH and I feel we should do this for the sake of his (and DS2, to follow)'s education, thus their future, thus their life chances (which, all being well, = happiness).

Thing is, DS1, 9 1/2 just CANNOT BE ARSED to do ANYTHING! All extra curricular activities are invariably greeted with a groan -though once he gets there he's fine; be it karate, cubs or piano (in school); gently applied advice about how to perhaps 'go the extra mile - nay INCH'! in homework, results in huffs, book 'chucking' down, sulking (he will not take 'help' from anyone save perhaps his school teacher...), the "I can't DO this/ I'm RUBBISH at this!" stuff cannot be assisted without the huffs as detailed above. It is SO frustrating!

I guess I come at it from a couple of angles: One is my mother, though she loves DS1 dearly, has casually and accurately observed that DS1 is very like my DB was at that age. DB, coming as we did from a different era (we're both in our late 40s!) wasn't 'pushed' at all. Rubbish secondary modern, no pressure to apply himself to ANYTHING that didn't take his fancy, no 'extension activities' of any description, us (well, me!) having to BEG to do music lessons, Brownies etc. Trouble is, DB's turned into at worst a bitter man, at best one who recognises that he's achieved nothing near his potential in life- OK, OK, how many of us do? But he's MILES off. He drives a delivery van for a living, a job he dislikes- but entirely of his own admission, he knows he lacks the discipline to do anything about it and does kind of blame our parents for NOT making apply himself, get stuck in- or send him to a better school! I do recall that where mum and dad DID push him it was hell's own job to get compliance and once it became apparent that his school WAS rubbish, he was completely entrenched in it, at 13 and more or less unshiftable. Also, parents just didn't have the - ahem, 'choice' of today. You went to 'the local'.

A second issue is that in 10 years time there just will not BE the low paid manual work available to the slackers- and I mean that: DCs who by all measures are capable of more but who just can't be bothered.

Now, I guess what I want to give DS1 is opportunity. At its basest, if I do what I can, at the end of the day, he cannot turn around and cast that sort of blame on us because we are trying to do our best by him. I am hoping all those DCs who grow up to 'thank' their parents for 'making' them do things are right!

BUT god, it's so hard when you're trogging around housing estates looking at property with a constant barrage of boredom coming at you from the back seat as you look at those 'catchment' homes- and I mean one or 2, not hundreds! When you're gritting your teeth even harder whilst you SUGGEST two three word sentences do NOT constitute 'a descriptive paragraph about...'. I SO don't want to get into the 'We're doing this entirely for YOU!' stuff- to an almost 10 year old, but sometimes I feel like shouting it!

How much harder would it be if we were thinking private, watching 10 grand a year being casually thrown away??! I do have a friend who does send her 2 private who actually says one reason is so they can't throw any blame at her if they underachieve academically once they're adults.

Finally, I guess the most useful responses would be from people with adult DCs who had actually run the gamut not The Smugs telling me how much DD, aged 7 LOVES her bassoon lessons and can't WAIT to go to Kumon! Yes, DCs should be allowed time to veg and 'do nothing'. Believe me, mine get PLENTY of that- it's the bits where some effort might COUNT where the indifference lies that get to me!

Was it all worth it, come 18?

Agree with ahundredtimes (as usual, puts what I'm thinking but in a much more articulate way)

The dcs go to "H". I hate homework with a passion. Spellings/tables = good. Long projects = vvvv bad. The number of Sundays which have been ruined by dh roaring at ds as they try to do a project on Romans or whatever. Teamwork skills are not good in this household.

and (sorry to bang on), my DS#1 has given up every activity we've chosen for him . Karate, cricket, sailing, chess. All of them. Now he's chosing things for himself. OK,it's playing drums and rugby, not neccessarily what I wanted him to do, but it's something. Not sure how I ever thought making him do something that was supposed to be fun was going to work.

Gg, this thread reminds me of my friend's younger brother, who was never particularly academic or interested in his schoolwork at all. When he was in his first year at university - and I can't believe he got to university - his mother, a rather pushy maths teacher, had to sit down with him to do his maths work. I remember thinking he won't make it past the first year and it's all a waste of time, BUT, a when I saw him a few years later, he had completed his degree and was doing his masters. And really enjoying it.
I guess some boys are just late developers

Yes, with activities, we have tried to steer the boys towards what might work for them, ie one does football, one does karate. They do get a choice, but you can imagine the answer to 'Well, what would you like to have a go at?' Dunno. Do I HAVE to do anything? Why?...

As for music, DS1 can happily change to another instrument. It's just that in the absence of him volunteering any ideas, I do make him stick at keyboard! I consider the ability to have a grasp of 'how music works' to be a life-skill that I feel all DCs would benefit from, incidentally.

See, if DS1 chose rugby and drums, fair enough! Seriously! We'd stand a much better chance of willingness to go, wouldn't we? DS2 was dead keen on his football coaching, but sadly I feel he's copying his 'cool' older brother's can't-be-bothered attitude and has suddenly declared it to be 'boring'... thanks, DS1.

And AM I stressing DS1 beyond the requirements of what I signed up for at school, plus 2 out-of-school activities he actually enjoys once he's there? Yes, as you can see, it's stressing ME!

Finally, fircone, I'm sure 'H' IS on the ball as that would be the expectations of a school like that in an area where the overwhelming ethos of the parent body would be towards compliance, getting on with it and self-sufficiency in their DCs! (Note I didn't say what I meant: Middle Class!). The head of Th. had the good grace to readily admit the school produces such excellent academic results becasue of its 'superior' intake!

Oh, yes, we are very superior people

I agree re late developers- but you don't get to university as a non-academic with little interest- unless there is someone there (mum?!) providing the 'rear boosters' to allow a DC to at least 'stay with the program/ keep up with the expectation' until that glorious day dawns where the DC suddenly SEES what it's all about, hey?!

One may choose to never darken the doors of academia again but one has the CHOICE if one has at least done 'OK' at school. Our schooling system is very make or break. It's why many schools make such a song and dance about KS2 SATS as they may dictate which set a DC goes into in secondary. It would be very easy for a B grade student who can't be bothered to find himself with the genuine C to D grade DCs in say a Maths set, which might suit the DC perfectly- but not his future options!

Th. head says you are so it MUST be right!

So is the other state school that bad?

My boss at work's son went to Th. He was certainly clever enough but lazy as. She was up at the school at the behest of the DS's tutor on a weekly basis to monitor progress, behaviour etc etc. This constant pressure on him 'got him through' to sufficient GCSE grades to get to P.S. 6th Form then a Law degree which he's loving.

My boss tore her hair out for years with her DS. Now it's paying off.

No, the 'other' isn't so bad, it's just not as good a fit as Th.

My Fil has house up for rent in Th catchment...what a small world!

number 42?

nope

ok, went to look at that just now! that would have been a seriously spooky coincidence!

Frighten him.

Take him to some really grotty housing estates, to the cheapest of the cheap supermarkets etc and show him how people with no money have to live. Explain that if he is lazy that's where he will end up.

You can hot house and pressure as much as you like but you cannot live his life for him, and that is what you are trying to do.

I can't agree that it is the end of the road even for a 16 year old who leaves school with 2 mediocre GCSEs IF (and it is a big if) they actually decide a few years down the line that they do want to get a better education/train for a profession. The only professions which it is impossible to qualify in without going to university are vetinary medicine and medicine. Anything else has another (albeit slower) route.

Access courses and part time stufy make university much more obtainable to people without a conventional educational background anyway.

I think if you were talking about a 15 year old your note of panic would have some justification but about a nine year old it just seems a bit bonkers. Sorry.

No, I'm fed up rather than panicking. There is plenty of time for DS1 to get his act together. But the chasm between where he's at and where he knows he needs to be when and if he does decide that he is, in fact, the master of his own destiny may be so wide as to be uncrossable at that stage. It's my hope to keep him, via a process of 'gentle pressure', sufficiently 'with the program' that should that day dawn, he will be able to step forwards into what he wants to do, not has to do as a result of allowing too many doors to clang shut due to laziness and indifference.

Yes, one can ALWAYS catch up, but boy, isn't it easier and cheaper to try and get it right first time? I mentioned this earlier, incidentally.

And no, I can't 'pressure and hothouse' as much as I'd LIKE- it would be completely counter-productive as far as DS1 is concerned. I can assist, suggest, be a bit firm..... bribe, coerce! Oh and move house into the catchment of a suitable school. But losing my pip or shouting is truly ineffective, as you'd imagine. I'm not trying to create a little genius here, I'm trying to negotiate my way through to DS1 realising that ultimately it IS up to him, that a bit of enthusiasm and application in ALL things in life reap their own rewards.

You will have to calm down-if you carry on like that he will dig his toes right in and be very anti any of your plans!
He is only a small child, jobs and good schools don't interest him. You can open him to opportunities but you can't make him take them. You will have fun when you want him to revise for important public exams!
It has to come from him, it is never too late-your brother could change his life but it sounds as if he still lacks the motivation.
It is frustrating, but the only person you can ever control is yourself.

How does one open a DC up to opportunities? Serious question.

"Darling, there's a judo/trampolining/archery/chess/warhammer/ballet (etc etc) club opening, want to have a go?"

"no".

I went to private school, with all the structure, threats and rewards possible
I would never do anymore than the bare minimum (except in singing)
I failed my A levels

I still went on to get a degree (aged 28) and then went on to become a teacher and deputy head. This was done because I wanted to do it.

Please back off. Show him a good example of what can be achieved with hard work and a positive attitude by the way that you behave. But please don't expect him to understand at the moment that what he does now (aged 9!) may or may not affect what happens when he's 20, 30, 40, or even 11!

Give him a chance to make a few decisions and a few mistakes. He'll learn far more than by having you on his tail trying to make him make the decisions that you want him to make.

"Darling, there's a judo/trampolining/archery/chess/warhammer/ballet (etc etc) club opening, want to have a go?"

"no".

I can't see the problem with that conversation actually. Is it not OK with you for him not to want to do these things?

It isn't just about school is it, you want to control everything he does. Why? Do you really think whether or not little Johnny is the cub who has done all the badges will make any difference to his life when he is 30?

You might get a different response if you said

"Darling, there is a judo/archery/ballet class opening. Would you like to go along for a taster session. If you don't like it then you don't have to go again. You only have to commit to attending weekly once I have paid in advance"

Or would that fall into the category of giving up too easily? Taster sessions are offered for a reason.

I think most children do need a gentle nudge at times, but I do think you pushing far too hard.

gaussgirl - but there will be the odd time that he says 'yes'. And there will also be the time when he says 'mummy can I?'.

Because there comes a time when short of dragging your child by main force to something he isn't interested in be it karate/tennis/guitar, he won't go. And I gave that up one Monday evening at the beginning of spring term last year after I had bullied and cajoled my DS into his karate kit and dragged him whingeng out into the cold to spend an hour in a freezing cold hall on a -zero night in unsuitable clothing. Whilst he was being bullied and cajoled into endless SATs practice at school. And I struck me then that not only was it counterproductive, it was also incredibly mean.

Why do you feel the opportunity to do these clubs you list is so important? If you are concerned about his future I really can't see where judo/trampolining etc play such a large part.

I stopped the extra curriculum stuff when I realised the house was much more relaxed when we didn't have to rush off somewhere after school which no one was that keen on anyway.

Let him have a friend over and play after school. Let them build a den or go mountaineering on the stair case.

I have one son whose work ethic is such that at parents evenings we are told he will achieve anything he wants even if in a subject where he has little talent.

The other, however, does just enough not to get into trouble. But, in order to maintain a good relationship with him I backed off. Now in year 9 and wanting to change schools for 6th form, the incentive to do well in GCSEs so this can be done has come from within.

He will change if he has your encouragement and support but at 9 years old and without the school having a strict regime re. homework you are risking ruining your relationship with him.