Whitehall “braced for private schools collapse” 7

[ICouldBeVioletSky]

Continuation of previous threads discussing VAT on independent school fees. The thread title is a headline from a Times article last autumn.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/education/5237575-whitehall-braced-for-private-schools-collapse
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/education/5242586-whitehall-braced-for-private-schools-collapse-2
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/education/5280646-whitehall-braced-for-private-schools-collapse-3
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/education/5301690-whitehall-braced-for-private-schools-collapse-4
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/education/5317397-whitehall-braced-for-private-schools-collapse-5
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/education/5337850-whitehall-braced-for-private-schools-collapse-6

While telling us that everything they do is to drive growth. The gaslighting from this government is insane.

“America is going through that upheaval now and it isn’t pretty! The coastal ‘woke’ states literally have no comprehension of the ‘America First’ agenda and vice versa.”

The US is a vast country and what we see of their Central Government Politics and the dramatics of it currently does not reflect reality on the ground in various states. Whereas here the Central Government does really hold power over everyone’s lives.

Plus I just read the newest UBS Wealth Management Report. It is us and Turkey with the biggest decline in wealth! Definitely not the US.

@Newbutoldfather - I am sorry but people with a net worth of 5 million closer to 10 million pre divorce (your words), and years ago, would normally send their DC to private school. So if your friends are telling you they are happy to pay VAT, they may not be telling you the truth as they may well have you down as a rageing slightly nutty socialist. I have friends like that too. I never tell them what I think and when I do they get all passionate and angry so I do not bother anymore and let them dwell in their student union thinking.

@Araminta1003 not everyone uses private school even if they could easily afford it, I’m not sure why you are so disbelieving on this.

@Araminta1003 ,

‘So if your friends are telling you they are happy to pay VAT, they may not be telling you the truth as they may well have you down as a rageing slightly nutty socialist.’

That is really funny! If you see me as a socialist for choosing a state school, it says more about you than me.

Normally my properly left wing friends see me as right wing, one accuses me of sympathising with the alt-right. Strangely my more right wing friends see me as left wing.

But, what we all have in common is that we can disagree without upsetting one another. Thankfully, as a generalisation, those of us who can remember life before the internet, can understand the importance of dissenting opinions.

I was anti Brexit. One of my friends was very pro. We are still good friends and can understand where the other is coming from. I imagine you can’t comprehend that at all.

@SheilaFentiman “not everyone uses private school even if they could easily afford it, I’m not sure why you are so disbelieving on this.”

I am not disbelieving at all. But you are not doing anyone a favour by doing so, especially not if you are taking a really good state school place. Of course you can do it, but I personally think it is morally wrong to do so.
And that is what we are arguing about. Some rich people on here pretending they are doing the right thing by taking the free state school place which could have gone to a poorer child for whom it would have made more of a difference. And this current Government is encouraging more and more rich people to take the free places and we know that many rich people live in nice areas with quite good schools.
It is all upside down thinking, in my books.

Yes @Newbutoldfather - I would never be proper friends with anyone who is staunchly pro Brexit (especially now it has proven so wrong). I would however respect someone who admits they were wrong by voting for Brexit.

If my DH were to vote Reform I would divorce him. There is a line.

Is it morally wrong of me to use the NHS sometimes when we have private health insurance?

@SheilaFentiman - for routine operations where you are clogging up the waiting list, yes. By all means if you have to pay a £300 charge or whatever I do understand why you would do it, but if you are paying anyway for private health care/your work is, why would you not use it and leave the free place to someone who needs it! Now I know some of the consultants do private and state work - but really if you care about bringing waiting lists down for all, why would you not use your private healthcare allowance.

@Araminta1003 ,

‘I am not disbelieving at all. But you are not doing anyone a favour by doing so, especially not if you are taking a really good state school place. Of course you can do it, but I personally think it is morally wrong to do so.’

I am sorry but here you are just wrong.

I gave a lot to the primary my children went to, money, time and expertise. Let me assure you they are very grateful that my children went there. That is an unarguable fact.

I imagine you wouldn’t make the arguments that tariffs are really good, as your domestic industry gets a bigger slice of the pie, or not? State schools are the same; supply increases to meet demand (as it does in private schools, but schools like to con people into thinking that they have got hold of a highly desirable rare commodity when their child is offered a place).

What is arguably unfair is that I live in a decent area and the schools are overall good. But, surely, you aren’t trying to argue against me enjoying the fruits of my labour?!

It helps the overall tax pot if rich people do not take what everyone is entitled to, be that free state schooling, the free university loan (for which the Government has to borrow at a huge cost) and their free NHS/dental entitlement.

The fact that some of you who are rich are arguing against the above is absurd.
However, I am not at all surprised to hear it. This entire country is encouraging us to get as much back as we can and put in as little as possible.

• but really if you care about bringing waiting lists down for all, why would you not use your private healthcare allowance.

To note, I have not said that I care particularly about this. But I haven’t had any elective operations in the last 10
years anyway.

Why is it morally wrong of me, as a net contributor of taxes, to use the NHS on occasions when the NHS is efficient and effective?

I pay the first £150 any year towards claims in that year, so once I have passed that, there is no further cost to me for treatments.

(I believe - though may be wrong - that a higher proportion of people will have PHI personally or through work than the numbers with £5m in wealth or who could readily afford private school)

I mean we have a rich Labour Party the true elite pushing their own to use the free state schools and free NHS as some sort of moral virtue whilst sitting in million pound houses etc. So, of course, the common rich British man will do just that too. But let’s not pretend it is doing the poor a favour! It really is not!!

Errr - politicians, particularly Labour politicians, are often deemed hypocritical if they do not use state services!

@Araminta1003 ,

Do you really think a good society has two classes of people, one who use government provided services because they can’t afford private ones and another who use (IYO) superior and very expensive private services?

Can you honestly see no downsides to this at all?

I really wouldn’t go by Labour voters with wealth on mn habits for tax policy.

it’s too skewed, of course some people will post they are happy to pay more, it sounds good.

The reality is better found by looking at behaviour around taxes on a broad level.

Yep

It sounds like they are happy to pay more precisely because they use absolutely everything free on offer! And deep down, if they are rich, they know it is not in the best interests collectively to take freebies if you are sitting on millions. Yet here we are and they are perfectly happy for some far poorer people penny pinching to send their DC with SEND to a private school to make something of them in the long run. Which by the way is in everyone’s best interests.

“Errr - politicians, particularly Labour politicians, are often deemed hypocritical if they do not use state services!”

Well precisely and that is the biggest pile of bullshit at the heart of the Labour Party. If you can afford to pay your way, pay your way. Don’t use the pot allocated for benefits and the poor and disabled.

They’re more likely to be instructing their accountant on how to get the tax bill down. I don’t think they’re here posting with the friend on how to up it.

@Newbutoldfather - you could have easily given to the state sector by being a Governor across numerous schools that your children did not attend. There was really no need for you to have to attend a state school. We have had a scheme in our office for 30 years to be governors across deprived state schools all over London to bring business acumen and legal knowledge to the table, for free, in an impartial manner. You sitting as Governor on some naice primary school board is not adding as much value as if you had gone and actually added value in places where they really need you. Most parents doing the PTA etc Governing are doing it indirectly for their own kids.

The gaslighting on the VAT take on private schools now going to housing is the biggest piss take of them all. We all know what that actually means, there is not really any money and they do not want to admit that!
Same as the non dom bullshit. We all know many of them left and those staying behind are finding ways around it or are US citizens anyway so no way will the UK be getting tax at the cost of the US with their worldwide taxes. They won’t stand for it.

I have two children and one attends a state school and one attends a private school. The irony of course is that I am paying VAT for one child's education which is theoretically subsidising the education of my other child. It is madness! The state school my child attends is in a wealthy catchment so the parents I know at both schools are broadly the same in terms in terms of socio economic groupings and distribution. In fact if I had to say, I would suggest that there are more parents financially struggling in the private school because of the fees. You can suggest that they move their child to the state school to avoid this but in most cases the child has some kind of SEN and the state sector doesn't cater for this effectively. It is in absolutely nobodies interest, especially not the child's for this to happen. My child in the state school absolutely doesn't need more SEN children added to their class when the school is already not meeting the needs of the SEN children it has.

Anyway back to the post I quoted, the state would be a hell of a lot better off if more parents that can afford to do so sent their kids to private school. My child being in state school has deprived another (probably less affluent child living in a slightly less nice area) child a place at an outstanding school. This is a fact! Turkeys don't vote for Christmas though. If you want to excessively tax the rich for using private services then they will turn to the state system and be better positioned to monopolise all the best provision. They can afford to buy houses in better catchments, use private GP services to jump NHS waitlist etc. Labour are playing a very dangerous game. It's the same with the non dom tax. The policies are built on rich people not exercising choice when the reality is that the rich are always best placed to pivot and optimise. The government would be infinitely better incentivising private school with tax breaks and getting as many kids as possible off state books.

“Errr - politicians, particularly Labour politicians, are often deemed hypocritical if they do not use state services!”

Well precisely and that is the biggest pile of bullshit at the heart of the Labour Party. If you can afford to pay your way, pay your way. Don’t use the pot allocated for benefits and the poor and disabled.

I'm not sure what you mean by "well, precisely" @Araminta1003 ? The judgement of hypocrisy is often made by the press and public, not by "the heart of the Labour party", whatever that is.

And it isn't unreasonable to think that someone whose job is to improve public services (health, education, transport etc) should use those services for themselves and their families, is it? Otherwise politicians (of any party) are acting at one remove.

Of course. It’ll come out in the wash. If they need to up taxes again due to the gap between spending and receipts they’ll lose more support.

“And it isn't unreasonable to think that someone whose job is to improve public services (health, education, transport etc) should use those services for themselves and their families, is it? Otherwise politicians (of any party) are acting at one remove.“

Not really for the NHS as we all need to rely on A&E and I bet most Labour high up politicians do have private healthcare, in case they get cancer. As for education, there are only a certain number of outstanding and good school places so if you use them, you really are taking away a better place from someone else’s child and the same is the case for NHS waiting lists. We all need to use roads, council services, police, rely on the fire brigade anyway.

The expensive rationed stuff like NHS and Education those who can pay should pay, it saves the country money. Free at the point of delivery still means it is costing the country a bomb, especially now that Government debt is so huge.