Whitehall “braced for private schools collapse” 7

[ICouldBeVioletSky]

Continuation of previous threads discussing VAT on independent school fees. The thread title is a headline from a Times article last autumn.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/education/5237575-whitehall-braced-for-private-schools-collapse
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/education/5242586-whitehall-braced-for-private-schools-collapse-2
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/education/5280646-whitehall-braced-for-private-schools-collapse-3
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/education/5301690-whitehall-braced-for-private-schools-collapse-4
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/education/5317397-whitehall-braced-for-private-schools-collapse-5
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/education/5337850-whitehall-braced-for-private-schools-collapse-6

@Araminta1003 ,

So, to so a Jeremy Paxman:

Do you really think a good society has two classes of people, one who use government provided services because they can’t afford private ones and another who use (IYO) superior and very expensive private services?

Can you honestly see no downsides to this at all?

Or is that a tricky question where you would prefer to act the politician and answer a completely different question?

Also did Angela Rayner not get a discounted council house when there are thousands of people stranded without council housing? Why is she not giving it back to the pot now she can easily afford to do so? I really do not understand this mentality. Or is she also doing the general public a favour holding onto a council house and renting it out?

Rayner bought her former council house under the (Tory) right to buy scheme 8 years before she became an MP. That house is no longer council housing and she subsequently sold it, she’s not renting it out.

ETA bought 2007, sold around 2010

@Newbutoldfather - health is not a two tier system here. Everyone still has to rely on the NHS, whether you like it or not. Not just for A&E, if you want a referral to private services you usually need your GP to refer you anyway. The state and private sector complement each other and there is a lot of overlap. Quite often if you have an operation “privately” it is in an NHS hospital and you pay a very hefty hospital fee and quite often you will see your treatment carried out in a private hospital as an NHS patient. So to talk about two tier is really quite factually incorrect.
As regards Education as well pretty much everyone ends up in the same universities, pretty much everyone now starts together in private nurseries, some kids go to the private sector for part of their education (typically secondary) - there is far more overlap in reality. Just like lots of posters on here have some kids in the private sector and others in state.
It is really unhealthy and divisive to not see how these different sectors overlap and interlink and again, I do not think rich people hogging free services when they can afford to pay up is ever good. Not for politicians, not for everyone else.

Also - a basic MP salary is £94k. That’s a good salary, for sure. But if the spouse isn’t also on a decent salary, it’s not enough to comfortably cover private school. And of course, a bunch of MPs lose their jobs every 4-5 years.

Starmer is not a basic salaried MP though is he. His main house was worth over 2 million, his gold plated pension is 1 million minimum, very conservative estimate he must be worth at least 5 million and with all the speeches he will give in the future he is going to be a multimillionaire. And yet his kids are in state school. It is is fine, but I do not believe for one second that he could not afford to send them to private school.
If Sunak and Reece Mogg had sent their kids to state school given their riches, would that really not have been ridiculous?
And apparently Teresa May has also made a lot of money on speeches since 2019. It is just the way it is for top politicians.
And Angela Rayner definitely lucked out on the Tory right to buy scheme which she knows is bad for council housing. So she too is a hypocrite.

And Angela Rayner definitely lucked out on the Tory right to buy scheme which she knows is bad for council housing. So she too is a hypocrite

So she shouldn’t have bought a house to secure her future back in 2007 - after having left school in 1996 at sixteen, pregnant with no qualifications, and then going on to become a care worker? Goodness, how she lucked out….

But she shouldn’t have bought it in case she became deputy pm a decade and a half later and it was hypocrisy? That’s absolutely crackers as a position!

—

Yes, I’m aware Starmer earns much more, but you seemed to be talking about politicians in general. And even Cabinet ministers risk losing their seats every 4-5 years.

@Araminta1003 ,

I didn’t ask you how the NHS and private system interlinked, which you don’t really know anyway. You don’t need a GP referral unless you are using insurance.

And, if you leave the uk for the U.S, you can easily avoid state health care entirely.

The question I asked you was (for the third time-I think Paxman tried 8 times before the politician answered him):

Do you really think a good society has two classes of people, one who use government provided services because they can’t afford private ones and another who use (IYO) superior and very expensive private services?

Can you honestly see no downsides to this at all?

This seems to be your belief and where all your arguments end up.

“Do you really think a good society has two classes of people, one who use government provided services because they can’t afford private ones and another who use (IYO) superior and very expensive private services?”

I did answer your question. The exact wording is a leading question with the presumption that private services are both superior and more expensive.
Which is not the case in the UK. Private healthcare is not superior, it is often the same you just wait less, but you mostly end up with the same specialists anyway and often without the protection of a full NHS paper trail. Same goes for private education, as you fully well know. There are plenty of excellent state schools which primarily rich people and politicians get to access at the cost of poorer people.
Yes of course, the uber elite public schools may to some extent be “superior” etc but again, not everyone would want their DC boarding on a stressful short term and staying at school until 6pm most days with a full workload. So I dispute the fact that even Westminster or Eton are “superior” to the grammar schools my DC attended. It is a question of what you value.
And frankly most of us are “buying” a state education via house price catchments anyway, so I hope that answers your very leading question.
Or do you expect me to start talking about praying as well now.

Which is not the case in the UK. Private healthcare is not superior, it is often the same you just wait less,

Waiting less is better, though. If it wasn’t, then employers wouldn’t pay for it.

And every private appointment I have results in a follow up letter and a tick box for that to be shared with my NHS doctor, covering off the paper trail.

—-
You do tend to make a series of statements that don’t necessarily follow, so complaining about leading questions when you are asked is a bit… much.

@SheilaFentiman ,

Health care is very complex.

The waits in the NHS at the moment are unconscionable, and everything you say about the private sector treating you as an adult is also true, although the NHS App has improved things, if you are prepared to be endlessly patient.

Also, a private room is so much better than a ward if you can afford it.

OTOH, when you don’t have a diagnosis or it is complex, the NHS tend to have the big multidisciplinary teams, whereas private care is generally more atomised.

The thrust of my question, which @Araminta1003 will never answer, because I am not sure she even understands it, is whether one section of society totally isolating itself from the rest of society is a good thing. I don’t think it is. I think people mixing allows them to better empathise.

It is quite worrying that even theatre audiences now laugh in serious bits of old plays because they just can’t understand that other people had different experiences and maybe irrational fears. They are so isolated in their own bubbles, reinforced by internet echo chambers, that they can’t even conceive of people having alternative opinions without being stupid

@Newbutoldfather i agree that the NHS is best for many things, which is why I use it and PHI, but that upset @Araminta1003 also, because I should only use PH if I am privileged enough to have PHI.

I think that was her point, anyway.

@Newbutoldfather - I did answer your question and more than once! You can’t isolate yourself from society here especially not just via health and education plus in any event you have to face the general public every single day on the roads, as neighbours via policing etc etc it is completely ridiculous to suggest that you can somehow live in an ivory tower in the U.K. Maybe somewhat in canton Zug on the lake but definitely not in the U.K. nor in eg France for that matter.

No @SheilaFentiman I said you should use your private healthcare if it is reasonably freeing up a long wait for someone else because that would be in all our interests - someone else in less pain, more likely to get back to work etc helps all of us.

Arguably, if NHS specialists are splitting their time between public and private, more use of private increases public sector waits!

It’s a sidebar, but I do also get a superior service with PHI for many things, not just a shorter wait. NHS physio after my first child was a few sessions in a group. Private physio after my second child was 10 one to one sessions. Similar experience with therapy.

They are so isolated in their own bubbles, reinforced by internet echo chambers, that they can’t even conceive of people having alternative opinions without being stupid.

That happens on here - there have been numerous posts accusing Brexit voters of being thick and according to a few posters, citizens should have to pass a test before being allowed to vote.

@Araminta1003 As someone who has been a governor in state schools, has worked in state schools, has sent their children to state schools, who had parents who worked in the NHS their entire working lives, I think you are very wrong. Wealthy and reasonably well off people paying tax and using state education and medical care are good for the system, not bad, and are extremely welcome. They are easier to educate, donate more of their time, money and expertise on top of tax they have already paid (from a basis of actual knowledge of what they are supporting if actually using the service, rather than occasionally patronising charity if they don’t), and are healthier, so cost the NHS less, anyway.

For private schools to siphon off the most engaged families, whether via scholarships or fees, does not generously open up more places for the waifs and strays in the best state schools, it just lowers expectations and levels of engagement amongst those who are left behind in the state sector. And I think it is disingenuous to claim otherwise, tbh - fee paying schools can be innovative and set high standards, of course, or be more nurturing and good with SEN, but they are an extra escape clause for those who can afford it, once the places in the “best” state schools have run out, they are not evidence of the moral superiority of the people paying the fees.

And you only have to look at medical care in the US to see what a lie it is that if you can afford to pay, you should because this is a good thing for those who cannot afford it. Nobody in their right minds would want to be uninsured in the US and reliant on its free provision. And of course UK state education and healthcare wouldn’t remain in the form they are in now if society moved to a model where only the poor could access state provision. Why on earth would they, with such a fundamental shift in the social contract?

And even if you are using private health insurance you can often get a private GP referral through the insurance company.

I find it amusing that it is immoral wealthy people using state schools for their DC. State schools are not a means tested benefit, they are a big part of the fabric of our society and I had every right to use the excellent ones that were accessible to my DC. Such assertions are not dissimilar from me saying ofAraminta - why did she have so many children when she could have just had one or two and easily paid for private schooling and unburdened the state. Of course I wouldn't say that as her procreation is none of my beeswax, just like where I chose to send my DC to school is none of hers.

Fwiw, I think people who teach in the private sector but whose own children are educated in the state sector, or who have taught in a variety of schools in both sectors, are in quite a good position to comment on how both systems work - more so than people who have children in schools, but don’t really understand much about what goes on behind the scenes.

I don’t think it’s that opaque for parents.

It probably does influence voting and support for Labour though.

“And you only have to look at medical care in the US to see what a lie it is that if you can afford to pay, you should because this is a good thing for those who cannot afford it. Nobody in their right minds would want to be uninsured in the US and reliant on its free provision. And of course UK state education and healthcare wouldn’t remain in the form they are in now if society moved to a model where only the poor could access state provision. Why on earth would they, with such a fundamental shift in the social contract?”

I would never look to the US for an alternative system, I would always look to the European systems like France anyway. We will never end up with a US style system here.
And again, I have DC in state schools too, have been a governor (not just in their schools), also have medics in the family etc etc.
Neither the private health care sector nor the private education sector work in a vacuum from the state sector. And I simply said I think someone with a net worth of 10 million should really not be taking up state school places, whilst at the same time expecting someone much poorer to pay VAT on school fees and defending their moral right to state education.

@Newbutoldfather - I would like to know though why as a physics teacher in a supposed high calibre private school you did not take the large fee discount for your own DC, and chose state education instead. Is it because you taught in a single sex school?

“I find it amusing that it is immoral wealthy people using state schools for their DC. State schools are not a means tested benefit, they are a big part of the fabric of our society and I had every right to use the excellent ones that were accessible to my DC. Such assertions are not dissimilar from me saying ofAraminta - why did she have so many children when she could have just had one or two and easily paid for private schooling and unburdened the state. Of course I wouldn't say that as her procreation is none of my beeswax, just like where I chose to send my DC to school is none of hers.”

@KendricksGin - I think if I had just 1 or max 2 DC, had stayed bang in Central London itself and gone all out on my career I would have paid hundreds and hundreds of thousands of tax every year and probably would have sent my DC to private school and perhaps it may have been better for society overall.

The reason I work part time and had 4 DC is because I want to live my own life to the full, instead of working 15 hour days and just paying a lot of tax. But I am immensely grateful to my colleagues who do still do that and I know it is them who enable the rest of us to make these choices. So I am not going to sit here and pretend I took the moral high ground by taking time with my family and sending them to a state school and volunteering there etc when I fully know I could have been more productive to society in other ways (possibly). I have no interest in just being economically productive. What I do understand though, very clearly, that there is a tipping point for others like me where you simply are not incentivised to keep working the 15 hours a day, at least not in this country. And that is all I am trying to point out. It is not that complicated.

My experience is that it is more opaque than many parents think, given the often large gap between reality and their expectations. Also, the reputation of a school is invariably a good few years behind the reality, and it’s amazing how slowly parents cotton on, as a lot of a school’s reputation is based on what parents are telling each other, rather than what they ought to see is actually happening, if they actually understood where to look.

Do you think your colleagues who still work those long days are actually choosing to do it because they think it is good for society and want to pay lots of tax, then, @Araminta, and not because of their own personalities? Do you think our society would be better if everyone were like your friends? Or are they also immensely grateful to you? Or what about people who work 15 hour days but don’t actually contribute much in tax, because, eg, they work in social care, or as unpaid carers, or as nursery nurses? Should we all be grateful to each other, or just grateful that we are not all the same, because imvho, society would not function well if we were all just one personality type.