Whitehall “braced for private schools collapse” 7

[ICouldBeVioletSky]

Continuation of previous threads discussing VAT on independent school fees. The thread title is a headline from a Times article last autumn.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/education/5237575-whitehall-braced-for-private-schools-collapse
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/education/5242586-whitehall-braced-for-private-schools-collapse-2
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/education/5280646-whitehall-braced-for-private-schools-collapse-3
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/education/5301690-whitehall-braced-for-private-schools-collapse-4
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/education/5317397-whitehall-braced-for-private-schools-collapse-5
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/education/5337850-whitehall-braced-for-private-schools-collapse-6

Personally I also don’t think it’s fair to throw two supposed experts under the bus that Labour use to CMA - the choice to go for this policy rests with the top dogs Starmer, Reeves and Phillipson. The blame is on them. Not sure some IFS guy or a tax guy should be getting the blame here.
This is a divisive populist and political crap policy at its finest. So those making excuses, please own it. Was it worth it?

That is true. But given the context of all the contentious threads (which the poster has been part of) talking about "still buying advantage" is passive aggressive, you have to admit. And it is a dickish thing to say.

Would it be better if I said "I see absolutely no reason why you should get the satisfaction of imagining you're 'sticking it to the man' when you're just making passive aggressive, dickish comments" ?

I have been called a twat and my daughter a cunt. That's when I stopped bending over backwards to be overly polite, because other posters felt entitled to attack my daughter based on the type of school she goes to!

That shouldn’t have happened @twistyizzy and I am sorry it did: I dip in and out of this thread (mostly out) because I find the constant characterisation of the policy as “vindictive” really tedious.

So I didn’t see it (and I would assume it didn’t come from any of the recent posters).

I came back largely to ask a specific poster about their specific experience and I got my answer to that, so I will hide the thread for a while again.

It's not passive aggressive at all. It is just fact. You have said before that even with the very best state option available, you would still buy a private education. That is very different from what a lot of posters say e.g. SEN, woeful state option locally. You must just believe private education is significantly better in its very essence than state so what is that buying, if not advantage. I'm ignoring all the childish sweary insults. They say much more about you than me.

Of course that is awful but it doesn't give you carte blanche to attack others who would never think or write something like that.

I don't attack people. I robustly challenge bollocks. Where have I personally attacked you?
I and my child have been personally attacked so no I won't sit back and let posters get away with spouting crap. I know the impact this is having across the country on children.
Why can't you just own the fact that you support taxing the education of children?

The fact that about four posters have enough time/anger/self-righteousness to write a Russian novel"s worth of posts each on a (checks) 262-page thread does not make that thread worthwhile.

Although, yes, their attitudes and arguments will only do damage to the cause they think they're advocating for. It's up to them how they want to spend their time, but they've wasted it massively.

Agreed.

This exemplifies beautifully that you don't even seem to know when you are insulting people. "challenge bollocks", "spouting crap" and making accusations about views that aren't held all in one post. It's almost amusing.

If it was your child as the victim of something that a small number of posters kept saying they supported, I'm sure you would robustly defend your position too.

The great thing about MN is that there's zero need to engage, you can just scroll past! I will not let misinformation, prejudice etc go unchallenged cos at the end of the day it's children who are being impacted here!

I am not directly insulting anyone personally. If people are saying things which are based on sweeping assumptions rather than fact and cant then support their claims with evidence, then yeh they are talking bollocks.

Show me where I have personally attacked someone. Directly and personally attacked someone.

Of course you are. The difference between debating and insulting clearly eludes you.

No, I think it eludes you. You claim I am personally attacking people but can't identify where I have done that. Debate includes having to evidence your claims, I can evidence all of mine, you seem unable to.

This is pointless.

End of the day this policy boils down to taxing the education of children and UK is now only country in the whole world to do that. If you support that then just own it, have the balls to stand up and say you think that the education of children, including those with SEND, is something which should be taxed.

I just gave three examples. You've accused me of "talking bollocks" "spouting crap" and covertly supporting a policy that I have clearly said many times that I don't. Yesterday you specifically said "barking privilege"when referring to my post. This suggests that you don't realise how aggressive your posting language is? Maybe it's a cultural thing. Anyway, I'm hiding this thread for a while, it's just too much and it doesn't directly affect me. Have fun!

I said posters, plural, not you specifically 🙄 FFS this is getting ridiculous, I was talking about any poster who posts misinformation/views based on prejudice. The fact you automatically assumes this is directed at you says more about you than it does me.

You are obviously programmed to be offended, I wish you luck in life.

“The fact that about four posters have enough time/anger/self-righteousness to write a Russian novel"s worth of posts each on a (checks) 262-page thread does not make that thread worthwhile.
Although, yes, their attitudes and arguments will only do damage to the cause they think they're advocating for. It's up to them how they want to spend their time, but they've wasted it massively.”

@tortoise18 - every time the Telegraph runs the private school story in any shape or form there are thousands of comments from both camps usually within hours usually. It’s because it’s divisive policy making which this country is now addicted to. It’s the Pennywise pound billions foolish that we have come. It started with Brexit, continued with Covid, into this and next it’s the asylum seekers/immigrants at the next election. The spend on them is again peanuts in the greater scheme of the 1.2 trillion spend. People in this country on the whole are fiscally and economically and financially illiterate and it appears that includes many politicians. That is the real crisis here. This all goes so much further than private school VAT. It’s just the latest victims Labour threw under the bus for no gain just pain!

Forgive me if I'm wrong, @Araminta1003, but I imagine from your other posts that you, like me, think the Telegraph are on the wrong side of any arguments about Brexit, COVID or asylum? What makes you think that such unreliable minds are right about VAT on private schools?

Because it isn't just the Telegraph! Its the majority of every news outlet now.
It's a fuck up of a policy, poorly executed and likely end up being cost to taxpayer.

Labour rushed it through, didn't consult or engage, lied to everyone about the figures etc.

It is a shit policy which doesn't even raise any £ for state schools. At this point its indefensible.

Again, UK is now the only country in the world to tax the education of children Inc SEND kids (without simultaneously also giving generous tax relief on using independent schools).

It’s perfectly possible to agree with certain viewpoints and policies of people/political parties/media entities and vehemently disagree with others.

I find most of what Trump stands for abhorrent but when it comes to eg keeping men out of women’s sports he’s spot on.

The old left/right political divide has left many people feeling completely disillusioned and unrepresented by any political party (or the press that still divide along old political lines). It’s why I can’t imagine doing anything but spoil my ballot paper in all foreseeable elections. 🤷‍♀️

@tortoise18 - yes that is right. I don’t agree with the standpoint of the Telegraph on those matters.
However, I cannot as a matter of principle be anti education. It goes against every grain of my being. The more education a population receives, the better. Bringing a successful sector down a peg or two to cover up governmental failings is always poor. It would be the same if they taxed private health care. It’s a principle point.

What makes it worse here is there seems to be no real tax take or benefit that I can see. It’s literally textbook tall poppy syndrome. And they have massively miscalculated. Hence I don’t think we will hear the end of this. If it’s a failure, there has to be accountability.
There are a lot of jobs in private schools too. Why would a government championing employment set out to destroy employment? The teachers and staff in the schools doing bust aren’t elite. Closing some schools locally will make placing SEND kids even more expensive for councils. None of this makes any sense to me.

@Araminta1003 states the case perfectly! It makes no sense other than ideologically and that isn’t a worthy reason in a decade where there have been numerous problems leading to a cost of living crisis. It will cost the country money, angers the ‘cash cows’ (not me!) who pay quite a lot in taxes anyway, affects children’s education (and wealthier children are still children) and has caused the loss of many jobs. I expect my government to be pragmatic. I hope the media and social media keep highlighting the failure of this policy as it should be scrutinised.

The issue with adding VAT and business rates is that it deliberately makes things worse. Schools could have continued running without a government policy designed to make as many close as possible . And it doesn’t look like it will even provide state schools with any extra cash either. It is hard to take when the reasons are ideological and not sensible.

But you, equally, seem to believe that state education is ‘better’, so your argument doesn’t hold up as parents are, therefore, not buying advantage, if that is the case.

Perhaps people choose independent schools for options which they believe suit their children - more sport, high-level specialised sports coaching, teaching of Latin, Classics or Music at exam level, a more flexible curriculum? SEND too. Having options should be celebrated.

I would love to see how people who have supported this policy would react if state school places were allocated across a city by a lottery so that buying an expensive property didn’t lead to privileged education by default. There are many types of privilege.