Whitehall “braced for private schools collapse” 3

[ICouldBeVioletSky]

Starting a third thread to discuss impact of VAT on private school fees, as the topic looks likely to run (and run). Though probably best to finish off the second thread before posting here, thx.

I still don't get why an additional 20% has people reacting in such a ridiculously over the top manner.

Sure, if the Gov has proposed 50 or 100% tax then I can see this being malicious but simply taxing a luxury item, which this is, at the going rate for VAT seems a reasonable and proportionate way to raise additional taxes from those who, in reality can afford it.

If an extra 20% has bankrupted you, then you were likely overreaching and clearly couldn't afford it in the first place.

Really? It’s pretty obvious why people would be upset with their child’s school closing or having to move their schools. It’s not 20% of a greggs pasty you know and it’s been introduced mid school year to cause as much disruption to children’s education as possible.

To quantify it, thinking about saving £30000 a year instead of continuing paying £6000 more, would that be fantastic for the poor people?

Interesting. If you can afford your current mortgage, I'm sure you won't mind if it goes up 20% next month in order to pay for other people's social housing. 20% is nothing to you in those circumstances, right?

I was referring to the children being failed by the state system...

I know some people who went private because their kids were getting lost in the huge classes and they felt they needed more attention, and it may be possible for them to recreate some of this benefit with private tutoring. At least until VAT is added to that too - surely it's no more fair for people to buy private tuition than it is for them to buy an entire private education?

But most of the people I know who privately educate do it because their children were either being badly bullied or were not given enough (or any) support for learning difficulties, and they will obviously not be able to solve these issues with private tutoring. I'm terrified for their futures.

You are absolutely correct that this will almost certainly deepen inequalities; not only will people do their best to recreate the private school experience with private tuition and a packed extra-curricular schedule, there will be even more determination to get into the best school catchments and house prices will no doubt reflect this. We already see a lot of this where I am, the people who most loudly abuse private schools are the ones buying multi-million pound houses next to the very best schools. One way or another, people (or good parents at least) are always going to use whatever means they have at their disposal to help their children, so the only way to genuinely equalise education is to make state schools as good as private schools. But obviously that's really hard to do, it's much easier to implement stupid self-defeating policies like this...

Would you be OK with everyone's mortgage payments going up by 20%? Think about what that would feel like for you. It's a similar amount.

Even if you could manage it, you can see that would cause serious hardship for some people - who may have overstretched themselves, or may just have had a change in circumstances. They were just hanging on, because selling their house would be a huge hit, but now they just can't. Or else just don't want to: renting is now a better choice for them.

Now imagine that the government did this deliberately with a 20% Mortgage tax, purely because they think that house-ownership is right-wing and immoral.

But despite it being a tax, no money would actually be raised, because the government had simultaneously created a scheme where if people defaulted on mortgages, they would pay the bank (not the householder) the whole cost of the house (The householder still loses their house.) They didn't bother doing the calculations, but other people did, and it seems likely that so many people will default - which the government will pay out to the banks - that it will lose the government money.

So all that pain for people, and no money actually raised.

And loads of people on mumsnet were cheering it on, and saying that they hoped those stuck-up house-owners ended up penniless on the street (like they've said they hope that stuck up rich kids get bullied in state schools).

Maybe you can afford your newly increased mortgage + 20% we-hate-you-tax, by tightening your belt a bit. Maybe you can't. But you can surely see that you'd be fairly pissed off.

Royal School didn't make a difference to the really clever kids. It made a difference to the kids getting B/C grades, it brought them up to A/B - it literally added value. Perhaps the labour government are worried about average people getting ideas above their station 🙄

@strawberrybubblegum but mortgages have gone up, by way more than 20% thanks to the absolute incompetent previous government.

And yes, if you can't afford your mortgage if it's gone up by just 20% then you clearly have over stretched yourself.

Lenders deliberately stress test applications by up to 4% rate increase for this exact reason. Comparing mortgages which are a basic cost of living, to paying tax on a luxury item such as private school fees is like apples and pears.

Private schools are a luxury. You can either afford them, or not. You can choose to send your child, or not. But if 20% extra has made it unaffordable you were clearly over stretched in the first place

@SoaringKitty your argument to compare mortgages to school fees is utterly flawed.

Housing is a basic human right.

Private education is a privilege.

Can't afford privilege, tough.

Our ds in year 10 private and DD is in year 6. She has been offered a place at the private but hoping she gets a state place at our preferred choice tomorrow and if so she is going there.

The 20% on top of fees that's have already increased a lot and due to go up again this September due to the NI increase on top of our increased mortgage and other costs is just tipping the balance.

So from our family alone that is one more child the states needs to educate.

The state option is an outstanding faith school.

👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼 Well done labour. It's a great policy.

another closure
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/tax/st-hildas-suella-braverman-school-close-labour-vat/

and an article providing a list of recent closures

https://www.schoolmanagementplus.com/bursars-finance/private-school-closures-how-many-uk-independent-school-closures-2025/

Not flawed at all. Education is also a human right. The method of being educated, like housing, should be a choice we make, between state and alternative options. Somehow, you like having choice for housing, but not for education.

I'm sure you would love it if the state suddenly decided tomorrow that your family of 4 (and all others similarly sized) must live in only a 2 bed flat of their choosing because there's a shortage of housing and no private or alternative options are allowed. Or if they are, the flats are charged at a 20% premium because you are greedy for wanting more space.

Education is a human right, just as much as housing is.

Home ownership is not a human right by any stretch of the imagination.

The right to government non-interference in providing your child with an education in accordance with your values is an EHRC human right.

Actually it's extra funny that you've picked on human rights. Education in any form (private/state/any flavour really) is enshrined as a human right to be pursued any way we wish. It's the basis for the court case currently being brought against the government, as they are interfering with people exercising that right.

Private schools have put their fees up by far more than this over the last decade and will continue to do so.

Anyone sending children to these schools has to budget for over inflation increases.

This was a manifesto pledge why the moaning?

but mortgages have gone up, by way more than 20% thanks to the absolute incompetent previous government.

Imagine if the government had done that deliberately, just to spite you.

Because they believe for ideological reasons that no-one should own a house, and everyone should have the same type of housing. And the housing they assign everyone is not as good as your own home, and is in a location you can't choose.

And you knew they did it on purpose, because the increase was entirely preventable (unlike the recent interest rate increases which were market-driven), raised no tax money, and the same ministers had previously tried to make home ownership illegal.

Because it was a completely shit manifesto pledge, and we're now starting to see the entirely predictable harmful consequences play out.

Of course, we're going to point them out! We will do everything possible to hold Labour accountable for their spiteful manifesto pledge.

I cannot see how this could possibly be successful. How can something be a human right if you can only access it if you can afford it?

Well, yes, if the government provided free housing for all, then private ownership would be a luxury, and it would be valid to put up mortgages by 20%.

But that isn't the case.

Private schools are a luxury. There is a free state service as an alternative.

So you don't have a problem with a government deliberately putting a sin-tax on Education (normally considered a public good). A sin-tax which will actually cost the government, since VAT raised will be completely wiped out by the government having to subsidise education for more children (who their parents previously funded 100%)?

OK.

I do.

@Blankscreen - are you going to move your DS into the state sixth form of the outstanding comp in due course? It is hard on families, because mostly parents want to give their children the same opportunities and this VAT has made that impossible for many families who may have gone a different course with older siblings. So it makes it very divisive when you end up having to make different choices for younger siblings, due to this interference by Labour. I hope you get your choice tomorrow. Good luck.

A sin tax?

Private education is a luxury, there is a free at point of delivery alternative.

Private housing doesn't have an equivalent, so it is irrelevant to talk about a 20% rise in mortgages. There isn't much in the way of state provision.

If you can't afford a luxury, you can't afford it. Like anyone else.

It's a negative right, like the right to family life.

The government isn't required to provide you with a spouse and 2.4 children.

But they're not allowed to interfere with the family you have created yourself.

If the Education tax actually raised money, it would be acceptable. But since it's a sin-tax designed to deliberately reduce a particular type of education (following on from Labour's earlier attempt to make private education illegal) then that is government interference. Which breaches EHCR rights.

You're missing the point. You're only thinking of the poshos in their Eton boaters or whatever, which is unaffordable to people who are even within the private sector!

What we are actually talking about is "alternative" education, that which cannot be (or will not be) provided by the state, but which you should still be able to access as your human right. Are you Catholic/Jewish/Muslim/Hindu and want your children educated a certain way? Well private/alternative education is your only option. You believe in animism and wish for your child to attend forest school as long as possible? Private/alternative is your only option. Child is musically/athletically/linguistically gifted? Non state provision is your only hope to give them the practice, coaching, and specialist training they need, to achieve their goals. I'm not even touching SEND here, as that's too big a topic, but you get the gist.

I think this is going to be virtually impossible to prove as it is simply an opinion. By definition, the tax will raise money.