Whitehall “braced for private schools collapse” 3

[ICouldBeVioletSky]

Starting a third thread to discuss impact of VAT on private school fees, as the topic looks likely to run (and run). Though probably best to finish off the second thread before posting here, thx.

@twistyizzyI didn’t say whether it was a good or a bad idea. I was just providing a source that isn’t owned by the owner of GBNews!

I'm very torn on the GCSE debate.

I'm coming at it from various angles which makes it even more complicated.

I was at a super selective grammar, have no SEN and exams that require lots of memorisation are a very good fit for me. I don't remember GCSEs being the slightest bit stressful and only required a bit of effort for the subjects I was having to take because the government mandated them.

I now have a child with SEN at a great comp, who is absolutely not suited to content heavy GCSEs and while she works a lot harder than I did, the rewards for that work are hard to see which is demoralising and stressful. She's also doing a BTEC and getting stellar marks in that which is useful for comparison.

I am a fan of choice - those who want to study a broad range should have an IB path available, those who want to specialise early should have that path available.

I'm concerned that future plans are very one size fits all - when there are sizeable groups it won't fit well at all.

My main concern with current GCSEs is the amount of time that is wasted not learning anything. The whole of Y11 is spent cramming information and learning how to tick the examiners boxes. Nobody can get a bit of an edge with exam strategy anymore as everybody is taught it. You're now at a disadvantage if you haven't been told every trick in the book.

A lot of the information cramming is not particularly useful. Learning 15 poems off by heart, or a sheaf of Shakespeare quotations? Why? Much more useful is how to analyse - or perhaps being exposed to a wider range of authors. Severely dyslexic DD who doesn't read for pleasure only has knowledge of our great literary heritage because she watches a lot of films. School have exposed her to a couple of books a year which they have then analysed to death.

Science - why on earth is everyone doing 3 sciences when there aren't even enough teachers to go round? 6 lessons a week on something that a child has zero interest in. I'd like to see a general science option for those who are not wanting to go the STEM route, or perhaps select one science like it used to be. Then that frees up time to study something they are interested in.

I reckon there is a big mess coming down the tracks and I'm really glad that I'm done with education before I have to deal with it from a feet on ground position.

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk-politics/2025/03/keir-starmers-great-gamble

Here you go @CurlewKate - no point censoring me. I am not really partisan, sorry to disappoint.

I think what Labour have completely missed is that the middle classes demand a choice in education, even if it is an illusion of choice. It is not that people are ideologically welded to private schools somehow, that is far from the truth. They make an actual choice on where to live and what type of education makes sense to their family, bearing in mind number of children etc.
Removing choice or the illusion of choice from the middle classes is a terrible idea given they represent the contributing taxpayers and basically have the system over the barrel anyway. I think some of the current Cabinet got a bit power crazy and have not really realised that it is the businesses and taxpayers who hold all the cards, not them.

@Araminta1003how was I censoring you?

@OhCrumbsWhereNowI agree-I am not sure what I think about GCSEs. I have one child who sailed through the 427 exams-and another who found it very hard going. His school insisted on 2 BTecs as well as GCSEs and like the middle class mother I am, I was initially horrified. But as I watched I realised that they actually provided a much fairer means of assessment both for my top set child and for the less able contingent. They seem to be targeted more at providing an opportunity for kids to show what they do know, rather than what they don’t. I do wish we could insist on learning poetry by heart though!🤣

I totally agree on the BTECs have also initially been a bit sceptical.

Initially I couldn't see how anyone could fail to do well, but actually they need to use a whole range of skills to succeed - most of which are actually useful for the future. Research, planning, learning to write without plagiarising and how to do a proper bibliography. Flexibility to approach modules in a way that emphasis what you are good at rather than highlighting weaknesses with memory etc.

Looking at my child's class, the very able that work hard are coming out with the top grades, the lazy are coming out with poor grades, the less able but trying hard are coming out with better grades than they would have achieved in the same subject had it been an exam. Best of all, they have almost all really enjoyed the course and have positive thoughts about it.

@CurlewKate - the implicit reference to the Unherd link being right wing? I try and read it all, to see it from all angles.

Unfortunately the IB is too expensive to run in parallel to A levels in the types of Sixth Forms we tend to have access to as they are simply too small. So schools have to make a choice of offering one or the other. It would be very costly to offer both and so would need a large pool of students in the first place. The ones that do offer IB, many then cannot afford to offer a full MML choice or cannot afford to offer all types of combinations of subjects at Higher or Standard Level either. There are set blocks. In an ideal world all students would get a choice of number of GCSEs, types of combinations etc but the reality is that on current funding schools are limited in what they can offer.

So I think really large schools can offer far more choices, but the reality is that many children are happier in smaller year groups, especially the shy nerdy ones. It may be a better fit for them at Sixth Form but at least one of mine would have been totally overwhelmed going to a huge secondary coming from an intimate small very nurturing church primary.

What happens with IB if huge percentages of children never did an MFL at GCSE level? I thought it was a core component?

I think they would typically offer something like ab initio Spanish at Standard Level @OhCrumbsWhereNow

@Araminta1003it really wasn’t intended to censor. But Unherd is overtly right wing, so I thought it was a good idea to post a different perspective. Sorry if I didn’t express myself clearly.

Because for the IB you have to do an MML. You have to do English and Maths and you cannot do 3 Sciences although Psychology qualifies as a Social Science for some reason so Medics would often do Higher Biology Chemistry and Psychology because the Higher Maths is very difficult. There are 2 types of Higher Maths, the Applications which is simpler and the Analysis which is very difficult and great with eg Physics Higher if you want to do Engineering.
If you want to do Economics at an elite uni then you have to do the Harder Maths just like you have to do Further Maths at A level if your school offers it, the problem being that often if you change Sixth Form, then they fill the Further Maths places with their own students first and even if you got a 9, they may not allow you onto a Further Maths course.
Now how a not educated parent can possibly get their head around any of this 2 years before university is quite astounding. I know they offer to help parents out but the reality is the system itself excludes the poorer parents. Unless the school took control somehow.

Re GSCE changes I’m glad Labour’s policies won’t impact the oldest two here.

The gap between state and private is going to widen with all these policies.

Sorry @CurlewKate - yes, always a good idea to post a different perspective. But the author of that article is not right wing I do not think. Bloomsbury I think have published one of his books.

So how does the IB cater for a child who is severely dyslexic but brilliant at maths and physics.

Who has been allowed to drop languages in Y8 because they can't spell in English let alone a second language.

Who massively struggles with essays and reading, but can solve a hard equation in seconds?

Or how does it cater for the child who is outstanding at music and creative writing, but is never going to be able to get more than a 4 in GCSE maths on a good day?

I do get the feeling that the IB is considered a gold standard by some people in the same way that BTecs are dismissed as “dumbing down”. Neither is an accurate assessment.

I am not sure it does @OhCrumbsWhereNow and that is why I think A levels and IB should ideally be offered in large Sixth Form Colleges to as many kids as possible, is they get a choice. And perhaps offer a Foundation Maths or English to those who feel they need to continue with it alongside A levels.

The IB is really for high achieving all rounders and is loads of work. It is great preparation for university including a university dissertation and mandates volunteering as well and a type of philosphy course, but it really is not going to work for a more average child.
I think all the countries who do offer a similar back like Germany and France offer it within a grammar school type system. I may be wrong on that one. So when people go on about the IB they are talking really about high achievers.

@CurlewKate - it is not about the IB being a gold standard but the fact that universities demand points in Higher Subjects akin to A level points. So the kids end up having to achieve 776 and do 3 further standard subjects, and a dissertation of 4000 words and volunteering and a theory of knowledge course. So it is simpler to just do 3 A levels and aim for 3 A stars if you are a high achiever. Because that is what the system rewards.

@Araminta1003Personally, I think 3 A Levels is quite enough work-particularly if you add an EPQ. I think 6th formers should still be doing plenty of extra curricular things and they need time for those.

Your completely inappropriate analogy has been deleted. That post was in terrible taste.

Mumsnet can make their choices. The repeated posts making stupid comments about schools deserving to close deserve ridicule.

Hard disagree. The suggestion that her post referred to a school shooting was risible.

Thanks Araminta
My year 8 DC has already dropped MFL to permit a reduced timetable. I hadn’t realised that would foreclose IB if we have to change schools, so that’s helpful to know.

shotguns and children is bad enough by a country mile. Harder disagree with your condoning of it.