Whitehall “braced for private schools collapse” 3

[ICouldBeVioletSky]

Starting a third thread to discuss impact of VAT on private school fees, as the topic looks likely to run (and run). Though probably best to finish off the second thread before posting here, thx.

Totally. You're clearly clued up.

Yikes! Your poor parents with all their children gone, hope they're ok.

@SoaringKittyWell, for me, neither. I’m not in the business of judging people based on the choices their parents made for them- I judge people on their own actions. Incidentally, it is incredibly unlikely that your fil would get into a grammar school now. It was pretty unlikely when he was 11-he’d have a snowball’s chance in hell these days.

My mother died a couple of years ago, but my parents spent time overseas (my childhood was not in the UK) and would never seek to limit any of us or make us feel guilty.

FaceTime, WhatsApp etc make it a lot easier and cheaper to stay in touch than it once was.

@CurlewKate - contrary to popular belief, grammar school entry is still primarily based on avid reading and the local library is still free and accessible for many. An engaged parent and some reading up on past papers is enough. I did this 4 times now, never spent on tutors etc. Just because some people choose to spend thousands tutoring, does not mean it is actually required. An engaged parent probably is required. Poverty makes engagement harder, but not impossible.

@Araminta1003 It is very unlikely that a child in the position described would have a parent with the time, cultural capital, the engagement and possibly the knowledge to support a child through the 11+ And certainly in my neck of the woods, being an avid reader is not enough to get you through. A big help if you get there, of course, but won’t get you there.

Incidentally, I don’t think that gong to private school gives you “connections”-unless we’re talking top 5, which still do. Eton yes, St Custard’s no. But what private school
often does give you is confidence. Some people are born with the “How hard can it be?” gene. Some people get it from their family or from their education. Private schools are often very good at instilling it.

And for my DD that's what I want, I want her to feel that she can accomplish whatever she puts her mind to and not be limited by her gender or given careers advice of "nail tech/hairdresser" I kid you not that's the career advice given to our niece at the local state secondary, or "teacher" 🙄.
It's not about "how hard can it be", it's "if I work hard enough I can achieve my dreams". DD aspires to be Lucy Worsley/Mary Beard and her independent school are giving her the confidence to believe she can do that.

It's very sad that there are still schools that limit anyone's ambitions.

I know of state comps where they have been very sneery about students thinking of doing BTECs at 6th form - as if they are a lesser rather than a different option (and when ideally suited to a particular child who doesn't find exams easy but is very bright).

I know of private schools that have been dismissive of non-academic ambitions because they basically knew nothing about a rather niche but competitive and well paying job.

We've been lucky to have a state school that is ambitious for all their students and flexible in working with strengths and not being one size fits all.

Our local state secondary has some of lowest outcomes at GCSE + destinations in the whole of England!
That's the reason we chose independent but yet we are to be castigated??!!

That is the real elephant in the room. The huge disparity in state education.

I reckoned I could have got a job with the Good Schools Guide by the time DD went to secondary as I had looked at so many schools. At least 8 for primary and over 20 for secondary. Mix of state and private.

Even going via Ofsted it's not simple... I saw Needs Improvement primaries that I really liked and Outstanding ones that didn't even make the short list.

Our local secondary was one that we would have either moved house or gone private to avoid and there are far worse schools out there than that.

A lot of people probably don't even know just how different the same 'free' education can be.

State schools with 4 languages, 7 different arts courses, extra stretch classes for the brightest, huge amounts of extra curricular and loads of visits from experts and professors in every subject immaginable.

And then state schools with nothing more than Art, no music, no drama, one MFL, combined science for all. Next to no extra curricular and nobody seems to care if the results are rubbish.

I don't blame you at all for making the choice you have - I am sure you would prefer to have a great state school round the corner and not be having to find the fees (and be attacked for not being lucky enough to leave on the doorstep of a top comprehensive).

@OhCrumbsWhereNow fear ye not, Labour has a comprehensive plan for tackling inequality in state education!

Drum roll…….….…..

………………….
…………….

Make all education equally mediocre!

Remove funding for enhancement programmes for eg Latin and advanced physics, try to move SEND children receiving specialist state education/ state funded independents back into mainstream (never mind that just cannot meet their needs) and generally reduce parental choice!

Ta dah!

You forgot that they're also going to make it really, really hard to opt out of the Great State Education Plan by making home ed as hard as possible.

I wonder how they plan to stop people using overseas tutors (once they have found a way to legislate or tax UK ones into oblivion).

Fair point, Labour can’t take the chance that home educators might do a good job or even (whispers) deliver a superior education to the Great State Mediocrity Offering!

💯 this! It's all about confidence and enabling the child to find their strengths and interests.

I'm not too bothered about end results or grades. I want my daughter to find her skills, find new hobbies and enjoy the whole school experience. Im also not ashamed to admit that I want to boost her chances of coming out well spoken, articulate and confident!

So the policy has awaken competition in the sector? Clearing out the deadwood and meaning the remaining schools will have to think about improving their offer/teaching etc? Doesn't sound all bad.

I wouldn't bet on any court making the 'right' decision in any circumstance no matter my own personal thoughts on the subject!

However, I don't think it's a bad idea for a government to present a robust defence when challenged in the court for any reason. It's part of the democratic process. Not ideal for a gov to be defeated in the courts from their point of view, but considering how regularly the conservative gov wanted to throw out any human decency (Rwanda plan anyone just for a starter) I thank the courts for protecting (some) of our morals as a country. Not sure PE falls into this category for me, but happy for you guys to have your day in court.

Of course, they don't have to pretend they are 'charities' anymore. Redundancies do happen if customers or turnover drops in most businesses, I think you have have your eyes opened that these are businesses, and maybe you were under the impression they weren't previously?
There is absolutely nothing wrong with having a business selling education, but it's a sector that will experience market forces just like every other trading sector

I was really hoping DS would move abroad after uni but he thought he wouldn't be able to manage because of ASD.

We've already had a conversation with DD. She cannot understand the bigger picture of middle class being deliberately destroyed by the elites, but even a child can clearly see now how disruptive it can be here and how hard it is to be constantly jumping through the hoops created specifically to bring you down.

They are very much charities to us as DD is on scholarship.

It's so ironic that you are lecturing me, the beneficiary of PS charity, on how they are all ruthless businesses.

🤦‍♀️

Renewal and growth.
The world doesn't stay the same no matter how much we wish.
I wouldn't will a business to fail (apart from vape shops maybe!), but if they aren't sustainable and/or don't serve a need, then to close them makes sense.
A local (failing) private school near me closed a few years ago, lots of hand wringing from parents for years beforehand, then the kids just moved to the other private schools in the area (and lots of the staff too), shoring them up and the failed private school sold the building/grounds to a local entrepreneur who turned the building into a lovely eco-spa/hotel/restaurant.
This brought more jobs and definitely more cash into the area. Culturally too it added to the local scene with music/talks/foodie events aimed at locals as well as guests.
It's not all doom and gloom when regeneration happens, some people (shock) like it.

I don't think I'm lecturing, I thought I was added to the debate. But happy to leave you to it. I guess you found out the reality of how important your DD was to the school and I totally understand why you would be upset and it's really crappy that your DD has been treated that way by the school (as I assume she's been dropped) - hopefully if she still wants to attend you've found the money to enable her to stay

I’m going to quote a poster on another thread which addresses this fairly comprehensively:

“Oh ffs why are people still so ignorant.
Private schools that have charitable status still have charitable status.
^^
Delivery of education on a not-for-profit basis meets the definition of a charitable objective just as much as providing services in sports or healthcare or dozens of other things that can generally make the world a better place.
^^
Lots of charities charge money for their services. If the money they have coming in is equal to what they are spending on achieving their objectives they are fine to do so.
^^
If any charity is selling goods or services that are liable for VAT then they have to collect that VAT on behalf of HMRC, same as any profit-making non-charity. This doesn't affect and is not affected by charitable status.
Education used to be exempt from VAT. It is illegal to charge VAT on Education under EU law but post-brexit we can ignore that and it is now a VATable service. This is the same for schools that are charities (not-profits) and that are profit-making.
^^
Every single person who continues to comment on these threads while clearly being totally ignorant of these facts really makes themselves look rather thick. This information hasn't been hidden in secret, it is readily available for anyone who cares to check that they understand what they are talking about before sharing their opinions.”

I think you have have your eyes opened that these are businesses, and maybe you were under the impression they weren't previously?

Yeah right it's adding to the debate 😂

You assumed wrong, again.

I’m all for renewal and growth when driven by consumer demand or competition- it is a different case when it is driven by y punitive government policy. Having the fundamentals of your tax and economic assumptions ripped apart with no notice isn’t the same as a business failing to understand its consumers or competition. The vaping industry was given 2 years to adapt to changes in tax, private education was given less than 6 months