The councils need to find spaces for all children!!

[HooverIsAlwaysBroken]

https://bmmagazine.co.uk/news/surrey-runs-out-of-state-school-places-for-private-pupils-as-vat-raid-bites/?amp

I am relieved to see that the Surrey is also looking at options to expand class sizes and use transportation to take children to other areas. They really need to get their act together quickly.

all children has a right to state education.

The school didn't just get them a string of top grades. Their own intellect and hard work played a significant part. The teaching wasn't always excellent but they had the right attitude to work independently to fill the gaps. Great skills for life after school. If they had wanted tutoring we would have quite easily paid for it but they didn't need any.Why does everyone assume that state educated DC have to be tutored?

And thank you for proving my point.

You do realise that ADHD, dyslexia and ASD have no impact on how intelligent a child might be, and most of them have to work harder than their non-disabled peers. That's why they end up with burnout, anxiety and mental health issues on top of their disabilities.

I'm sure yours will sail through life after school with their intellect, hard work and attitude.

Maybe now you might understand a) why those who can afford to try and give their child a chance at a small size class or a quieter, non-disruptive environment might well try and fund private school, and b) why those of us who SEN kids in state do not welcome this situation as it benefits no-one.

I haven't proved your point at all. You are talking about a SEN minority. I am not as I've already said. I was talking about my own children and the fact that their achievements are not just because of their school as you suggested. However, it is ridiculous to assume that all state educated DC who get high grades must have had extensive tutoring. You were not talking about SEN children when you made that assertion.

Actually your point was that you “didn’t see why councils had to find places for all children”-you can’t change lanes when your own words are there.

You have absolutely no idea why parents rejected the state sector in the first place. This is about children-children who have done nothing wrong. Many of these children are in private schools because SEND provision just is not good enough in the state sector. And so their parents scrimp and save to do the best for their child. For others it is because they are Drs/nurses/paramedics or other employment working shift patterns for example and need elongated child care. This isn’t about the rich at Eton-it won’t bother them at all. This is about those who save everything they can to do the best they can, probably at small schools many of which are being forced to close.

And you think that these children should now be punished for that by going to an underperforming school miles away from home and can’t see why that wouldn’t be an issue? Your lack of empathy and generosity of spirit is astounding.

Will any parent be happy with that? I won’t be when my child suddenly goes from a class of 30ish to 40 when the private school children get squished in because they have to go somewhere. I think your prejudices are shining through. It’s not just the impact on the children moving from private schools, it’s also the impact on our children in a state school in a much larger class and less resources.
not forgetting as always that census day has already happened in the state sector. No child joining any school will be funded by the government until the next census in October 2025. I suppose every cloud though as the government save some more money on the back of children and schools.

Don't you know private school kids with tutors? It starts before 11+ and never really stops.

Even with regards to the top public schools, they will simply have less spend for bursaries and outreach or they have to fill their places with more international rich students (if boarding). So all in all that education ends up reaching fewer kids in Great Britain.
The Labour Party are just stealing from all our children! They seem to have written this generation off due to Covid - why else would they go disrupt some kids in Year 11 potentially and deprive thousands of state school kids of sixth form places they may otherwise have gotten, because now they are competing for entry with private school kids moving schools. So the SEND angle is the most offensive but key exam years are just as worrying and so is the potential shortage for Sixth Form places AND studying the actual subjects you want to. Many high achieving schools allow the top achievers onto the most popular A levels. The statistics show very clearly that as a group private school pupils outperform at GCSE.
It is so disingenuous to pretend that only private school parents are worried about this policy. Anyone who knows anything about education and has their own children still in the system will be concerned.

I’m sure some do.

The ones with strings of top grades that I know personally didn’t have tutors on top.

11+ was a mix - those from state tutored, those at preps let the prep prep them.

Oh please, kids who really struggle with SEN will never be admitted to an average independent school.
It's not like independent schools in their grace pick up everyone who couldn't fit into the state system. They choose the most convenient ones and state or parents deal with the rest.

In London prep parents who aim for top schools hire the most expensive tutors on top of school fees. And the competition doesn't stop there, turning these top-schools into self-fulfilling prophecy.
I understand why people choose to live in bigger houses in rough areas and send their kids to independent schools instead of free options available, but they should have factored price increases / loss of income before doing so.

And noone is scared their rough comp will be overflown with private school kids. It's even desirable :)

@OhCrumbsWhereNow - has already explained why the private sector has been good for DCs with SEND not of the most severe form. Those who just need smaller class sizes and more pastoral/excellent dyslexia support or frequent exercise for ADHD, for example, or anxiety or emotional based school avoidance. If those parents wanted to pay we all benefit long term. Many teens, in particular, just need the help for key years and are then ready to fly.

Labour have already said they want most SEND bar most complex back into mainstream to save councils going bust. But they aren’t going to pour enough into the Education Budget nor buildings to actually make this work. So less investment in that group of kids long term and worse conditions for teachers and other pupils too as there are not adults to go around to give all children the attention they need and deserve.

Am I really the only one worried this is privatisation of state education by the back door forcing more and more parents to either homeschool or tutor to make up for shortfalls in state education? They are simply lying to us. There is no extra money coming for state education overall to make up for the situation this generation is in - increased SEND is undeniable and so is the Covid trauma/anxiety/lack of school readiness etc. All of these factors have been widely written about and the policy they come up with is to incentivise people to overcrowd state schools further and stress teachers out even more? None of it makes any sense to me!
Or is this the new version of the private school magic money tree/unicorn? Quite possibly.

I’ll keep it polite even if you can’t. I made it clear in my second post that I meant ‘by all means find the place but whether it is one that is good enough or close enough is another matter.’ I’m not saying that kids DESERVE to end up with worse options than those which were initially on offer in the state sector when their parents decided on private instead. I’m just pointing out that’s what is bound to happen if significant numbers switch at an unplanned point. There is a limit to what councils can be expected to do. Talk about loss of charitable status and fees going up has been around for a long time. VAT is relatively new but that is just a mechanism for collecting more taxes. The wider intention has been clear for much longer. Parents have to take some responsibility for committing to private without factoring in sufficient financial contingency. I do feel sorry for the DC caught up in this.

And once again, I am NOT talking about SEN circumstances. I am talking about the majority in the private sector who do not have SEN.

Sometimes it looks like parents of children who struggle with basic subjects are making a fuss because they can no longer afford buying their children better marks that put them at the same level for University entrance as really bright kids from state schools.
But is it really bad for the society if more naturally bright children get better education?

@NewNameForCrimbo "Parents have to take some responsibility for committing to private without factoring in sufficient financial contingency. I do feel sorry for the DC caught up in this."
100% agree with you. Smart people don't buy Range Rovers if they can't afford unforseen expenses no matter how comfortable it's inside and how nice it looks on their driveway. Or don't take up a mortgage for a mansion they can hardly afford.
That's how this VAT thing looks like to other parents who have been more cautious with their choices.

DD - severely dyslexic and ADHD… and targets of 8 for all GCSEs had offers from top private schools with scholarships and multiple state aptitude place offers. We couldn’t afford it but she would have benefitted from the smaller classes even if we are very happy with our state choice.

I know a lot of children in independent schools with ADHD, ASD and dyslexia. Managed appropriately and with the right environment it need not be an issue.

That's where you are wrong. In Indy schools they can access 1-2-1 SEN without an EHCP. The non-selective indy schools offer that support plus small class sizes which are often highly beneficial for kids with SEN.
In DDs indy there are 3 pupils in her year with 1-2-1 support in each class plus several of her friends are autistic, have ADD + ADHD. They all struggled in state primary but are thriving in Indy secondary.

@OhCrumbsWhereNow and I know equally bright children managed out from preps because school didn't want to deal with distractions/parents of other kids complaining.
ASD and ADHD labels don't say anything about a child and severity of the symptoms anymore. They are now equally attached to a child with IQ of 40 and corresponding learning and behavioral difficulties and a nice shy kid struggling socially. Well guess who will be picked up by indies.

How are these “more naturally bright” children getting a better education when Labour are wanting to move more into state with no extra funding or ideas (and indeed less funding this year since census was in October)?

Without an EHCP in place there is ZERO help in secondary for learning differences. So teachers are having to fill in with extra scaffolding and over learning in class time.

And don’t think SEN kids aren’t in top sets so your “more naturally bright” child doesn’t have to associate.

Because their parents pay for the extra support.

Independent schools provide options for people whose children have certain types of SEN. But they don’t take all children as state schools have to. If they don’t feel the child will fit in or they have concerns over behaviour then they say no.

I'm talking about the naturally bright children who managed to get top grades in their terrible terrible state schools without "SEN support" aka extra tutoring. Without extra competition from private school kids with artificially boosted grades, they will be getting better education in better universities, obviously. And better jobs.
Does it seem unfair to you if smarter and better adjusted to the real life and associated stresses people get to the top?

Correct.

DD had a miserable time at primary as she was well behaved and compliant. Her SEN was ignored, none of the things in her EP report, like sitting at front of class could happen as a third of the class were boys with emotional and behavioural issues who also needed to be sat at the front. DD was used (along with most of the girls) as a buffer to separate the boys and be a “good influence” regardless of her own needs.

She’s fine in secondary as she’s in top sets for almost everything and behaviour and disruption is generally far less in those.

But what happens to those kids who aren’t going to be in those top sets? Is it any wonder that parents of children who are going to be aiming for 6s at GCSE get them into a different system?

One of the things you pay for with private schools is the removal of disruptive elements from the classroom.

🤣🤣🤣

This is hilarious.

Mine was. He’ll never live fully independently.

@OhCrumbsWhereNow
UK could use some natural selection finally 😁.

I understand what you're talking about and I'm ready to place my child into private education if state fails him and if numbers work for us (so again no sympathy for people who didn't stress-test their budget before making this important decision) , but in general it's been an unfair system for centuries when not the smartest but the richest had access to good education, and it would be great to see it go.

So you think it is unfair and want to see it go but yet are planning in using it?
I hope if you do decide to use an indy school then you don't feel too disappointed in yourself. Or is it a case of its OK for you to use for your kids but not for other kids?
Absolute classic example of champagne socialist.