The councils need to find spaces for all children!!

[HooverIsAlwaysBroken]

https://bmmagazine.co.uk/news/surrey-runs-out-of-state-school-places-for-private-pupils-as-vat-raid-bites/?amp

I am relieved to see that the Surrey is also looking at options to expand class sizes and use transportation to take children to other areas. They really need to get their act together quickly.

all children has a right to state education.

Thanks for the link @strawberrybubblegum and the additional info, I note the link says

Please be advised that gifts cannot be ring-fenced for a specific purpose or assigned to a specific area of public spending.

Most of the elite private schools have had prepayment schemes in place for years

Sure, @Araminta1003, but in the past there was no difference in VAT on the date of prepayment and the date of service delivery, so it was a moot point. Now, I don’t know which date will apply.

Yes

"We have, in the Labour Party, this horrible streak of class envy and it has manifested itself in several policies like VAT on school fees - what were they thinking...?"
Ann Mallalieu Labour peer,

Once again, I do not understand the criticism of 'class envy' here with this suggestion that any attempt to create greater equality in society is somehow slightly bitter and we'd be happier if we accepted our place and left our betters to their enjoyment of superior schools without complaining

What's the point of a policy like this if all it does is disrupt dc' eduction and doesn't improve the state sector?

Why are they "superior" schools?

A lot are just different schools... schools that provide smaller classes and more support for children with SEN, special schools for SEN (often not funded by councils but by parents), specialist schools for music or ballet where fees are shared by government and parents, schools for children who have been completely failed by the state.

The vast majority are not Eton or SPSG...

If this policy was going to actually raise money, and had been introduced in a manner that was fair, you might have a point, but that is not the case.

Labour are going to be out of government for a very, very long time after this stint. They're reckless, thoughtless and corrupt.

Schools with smaller classes and more support for children with SEND are of course superior schools. Why would anyone pay for private if they could have a better education at state?

But can't you see that some parents with SEN children are forced into paying for this because it's just not available in the state system?

I have a SEN child - multiple SEN - in the state sector. She doesn't have an EHCP (we were talked out of applying and now too late) and gets no support beyond access arrangements and the SEN dept are totally overwhelmed by the huge numbers needing support.

My child is fortunate, I can afford to compensate for what the state will not provide and I have funded tutors, latest tech, private consultants etc, while remaining within the state sector. But my child has no emotional problems and is very happy at school. I get to do state plus and no VAT payable.

Another parent might be in my exact situation and have a miserable child. Do they home school? Do they send them to the very small, no frills private school that means their child can access education?

Who has the superior education at the end of the day? My child with state plus, or their child in a private school? I reckon I get the better deal.

I can see that some people are forced into paying for private schools for their children with SEND and I also see that many more people would love to pay for private schools for their children with SEND and can't afford it.

You may not care for the posho kids - they deserve to suffer a bit, right?

But do you not care for the state school kids who will now be educated in even bigger classes, and the SEN kids whose provision will be even more thinly spread to accommodate those irritating hooray Henries transferring from St Posho’s Academy?

Do you not care that on Labour’s own analysis this policy will raise so little money it will make no meaningful improvements for any state school child anywhere? And that Labour clearly doesn’t give two hoots about the state school kids, because if they did they would be implementing a tax measure that actually raises enough money to improve things for them?

FWIW: my kids go to our local state school.

Yet the SEN kids educated privately relieve the burden on the broken state SEN system. Forcing them out of indy schools just puts more pressure on the state and means the taxpayer has to pick up the tab. At the moment the parents are paying for the SEN support.
That's why this policy is madness, it doesn't raise money AND it puts more pressure on the state system. It doesn't work in any way shape or form.

The point is that all Labour’s policy will do is level down, it will lead to more children receiving a poorer quality education.

Do you not think the aim should be to level up: to improve state school standards so there is much less of a difference with independent schools, and reduce inequality that way? In a number of countries, eg in Scandinavia, independent schools just aren’t much of a thing, there’s no need for them because the state schools are so good.

Why is it, do you think, that Labour wants to drag down the independent school sector rather than raise up state schools so more kids enjoy a better education?

Then isn't it brilliant that some parents take the pressure off the state for those parents who can't afford it.

Friend of mine's DS is in a comprehensive and needs a laptop for all lessons due to SEN. School only have 40 laptops available and over 120 students that require them. Friend could insist that school supply their child and make sure that they are first in the queue each morning to sign it out - instead she has bought her DS his own, so reducing the problem for the department and those whose parents can't just magic up a laptop over the weekend.

Why on earth is it a good idea to penalise those parents (who are the least likely to be able to afford private of any private school parents) and so increase pressures on state schools, teachers, SEN departments and all those other SEN kids who have no other options.

The pressure on councils for EHCPs is already terrifying - a lot of parents who decided to avoid the 12-24 month fight and stick the lawyers fees into a private school will now be heading down that path with subsequent knock on effects.

Which children do you think are going to be the very bottom of the pecking order now?

It's great that some people can afford to get great SEND provision while others cant. Lucky them to have that opportunity.

It's not often 'great SEND' provision - it's generally a smaller, quieter class.

Have you actually got any clue?

You are ignoring the fact that many posters are saying to you ie this policy only serves to harm all SEN kids. More SEN kids in state = fewer resources for a cos sure as hell there's no extra money coming in.

Mid year moves are also disproportionately disruptive and harmful for SEN kids yet this is what Labour are forcing

And how is Labour's policy helping with this?

Expanding classes and extra costs for transport

Nonsense, this is about the very wealthy paying taxes on the luxury services they enjoy.

the vast vast majority of PS parents can easily afford the VAT plus schools don't need to pass it on, larger class sizes?

But they wont do that because they wish to cater for their their very rich clients.

Will raise 6bn over the course of the Parliament.

Aside, i had no idea so many wealthy parents had SENDs children, why is that? or is there nothing they wont use to avoid tax, inc using their kids?

VAT isn't a luxury tax
Look up why education is zero rated across all Europe
Have you personally looked at the bank accounts of the vast majority of indy parents to be able to make that assumption?

Stop using lazy stereotypes and suspend your prejudice

FYI the initial figure was 1.5 billon across the whole Parliament NOT 6! That was based on overly optimistic figures and now with all subsequent exemptions + a much larger number already leaving Indy then a more realistic figure is 0.6 billion, across the whole parliament

Is that you Rachel?

The Sunday Times article is interesting https://www.thetimes.com/uk/education/article/students-should-go-to-their-local-university-and-live-with-parents-5kh2zrfsw

Sir Peter Lampl - founder of the Sutton Trust - criticising the VAT on private schools.
He also said what I think which is that students who can should go to their local uni to save money. I have said this on other threads - all unis should offer courses that lead to employment and are fair value to those students, especially poorer students.
I think Lampl knows a thing or two about social mobility.

“The government’s newly launched curriculum and assessment review will not go far enough in his view; he would like to see teenagers take a baccalaureate at 18 to ensure a broad education.
VAT will be added to private school fees in January. “I hate it. It’s a terrible thing,” he says. “You’re making the schools much more exclusive: State schools don’t have good provision for co-curricular activities, particularly music.”

Labour are not really interested in all schools being good. Envy suits them well. It rallies the troops. They don’t care about children. They only care about making sure a few people are thrown to the dogs in the name of equality and raising money. Both are fiction.

Labour always has one policy of kicking the symbolic “rich” to keep the baying dogs quiet and this time it’s at the expense of children. They don’t appear to be getting rid of state grammar schools. These confer more privilege than many private schools.

Share token for above article:

‘Students should go to their local university and live with parents’

www.thetimes.com/article/30b647af-7ea9-4262-bdea-194974ad93d5?shareToken=61e251ab9687656a3add83adad95e965

TES did a calculation... you need a household income of £100k, on average to send ONE child to PS....

Which tallies with my bro's salary of 250k tax free Saudi to send their two to PS..

I ve been to plenty of school sports days, lets put it this way, there are no Skoda's in the car park.

So not my stereotype figures