How smart do you need to be to pass 11+

[Mumofgirls12341]

My 9 year old is in year 5 and preparing for 11+ and I was just wondering how smart does a child actually need to be in order to secure a place? We’re aiming at London super selectives Latymer, HBS and Woodford County Girls School.

DD has always been exceeding/greater depth since reception but I wouldn’t say she is exceptionally bright - does she have a decent shot? I have heard of people saying it’s almost impossible to get into these schools so any advice would be greatly appreciated.

I mentioned in a previous post that I know two (other) girls whose parents had never previously considered state but who took HBS seriously last year, as a "just in case", and whose parents were very happy indeed to have the places in March. Labour had been the favourites to win the election for at least a couple of years, and they'd made clear their intention to add VAT to private school fees before that. The scene changed a while ago for many families with more precarious finances.

I also mentioned in the PP that this is based on the assumption that parents who were previously firmly committed to independent schools believe the main value added for secondary school education is a selective intake cohort rather than other factors.

This belief likely represents only a limited number of private school parents whose children qualify for grammar schools and financially already constrainted. As you said, the VAT policy was expected long before. The effect probably should have been reflected in the applicants or intake profile long before this year.

I don't think it was clear that Labour would win for such a long time - I'm still a member of Labour party though not an activist, and I wasn't so sure until maybe late winter - early spring. That's when I started a scholarship application process with two other PS as a back up in case Labour win. I didn't think though that they would be as ruthless as introducing VAT mid-year.

PS Many political analysts were absolutely sure Kamala would win. The elections are not that predictable generally.

Many political analysts were absolutely sure Kamala would win.

This is the joke of today I believe.

From my point of view, Labour became strong favourites after Liz Truss, almost exactly two years ago.

I didn't think though that they would be as ruthless as introducing VAT mid-year.

On this we agree.

Yes POV may differ but people are generally reluctant to uproot unless it's 100% clear and urgent. And then it may be too late of course.

Our former PS is all-through and relatively high in the league tables so people used to be happy to stay. Now the doctors for example are reconsidering their options and some will probably go to local comp, not even grammars. Some have three or four children and VAT is a real drain.

What is "this", which is based on the your claimed assumption?

That those two girls I mention are currently at HBS is a fact. My belief that their parents had previously intended to keep them in their (different, academically selective) all-through independent schools is based on conversations over several years. The claim that the changes in plans were principally due to the expected Labour victory and expected imposition of VAT on private school fees may be suspect, but it's their words, not mine.

But, to address your claimed assumption, I assert that nearly all of the parents at my DCs' independent schools would place a "good" cohort, with well behaved and disciplined students, with few disruptive students, with supportive and educationally ambitious parents, as one of the very top priorities in choosing a school. Ahead of small classes, ahead of extensive extracurriculars, ahead of shiny new facilities, all of which may be desired, but rank behind a good group of classmates with whom to learn. And an academically selected intake is one way to get that kind of a group of classmates.

For those two families, for whom push did come to shove, who could not or would not make the tradeoffs to keep all the perceived benefits of the independent schools, they showed which aspect they cared most about. And I believe that most of their former peers would have made the same decision if it were necessary.

Again, anecdotally - last year one child left for grammar. This year - two have already secured grammar places, two are through to the second round and one will get a place I'm sure, one is sitting less selective grammars, one has left for state straight away to start in September and at least another one is leaving (maybe more, remains to be seen), two left/leaving for scholarships. That's A LOT more movement YoY.

I assert that nearly all of the parents at my DCs' independent schools would place a "good" cohort, with well behaved and disciplined students, with few disruptive students, with supportive and educationally ambitious parents, as one of the very top priorities in choosing a school.

This is not the same as having the academically selection as the sole criterion. Hence, there are many more schools that meet such a priority.

There's no need to rely on anecdotes. If you look at the statistics published by some London prep schools, you'll see that it's been common for 2-3 students to choose grammar or state schools each year for quite some time (this was since year 2010).This shows that there isn't a YoY upward trend.

Do you understand the difference between prep and all-through?

Everybody makes the tradeoffs which they think will give them the most benefit. From 1st January, private schools will require larger tradeoffs than before and some fraction of private school parents will decide that a different tradeoff is better for them. The local comp plus supplemental tutoring and/or extracurriculars might be the best solution for some. If the local comp is deemed to be "unacceptable", moving house, or demonstrating the right religion, or tutoring for exams for some selective schools might work. But, by definition, the new tradeoffs, including just staying put and paying the VAT, will leave the families worse off.

All-through schools won't publish the leaver statistics for junior schools, whereas prep schools will. This doesn't mean there were no transitions in the past. Indeed, some students used all-through schools as an insurance for a higher-ranking secondary school, whether private or grammar. This has nothing to do with VAT.

“This belief likely represents only a limited number of private school parents whose children qualify for grammar schools and financially already constrainted. As you said, the VAT policy was expected long before. The effect probably should have been reflected in the applicants or intake profile long before this year.”

This is completely incorrect. This VAT policy is simply as crazy as Brexit so many people just thought it was a bluff or somehow hoped Labour would not get in. Now you have business rates thrown in, confirmed NI changes plus recent school fee hikes- pretty obvious to anyone what is going to happen! The strongest private school candidates will take the best state school places. That was obvious all along.

I have two friends who teach in the local selective private school. They have never had so many sit the 11 plus grammar as this year! And this is despite their private school doing really well. The teachers are worrried, hence sharing their worries.

It's just about getting to know how to pass the exams. They're in three sections usually. I've done and passed about 6 back in the day for various private schools. I'm not very academic by nature. I had a tutor as went to a very untraditional primary with no tests or marking of work with grades. They didn't teach maths at a high enough level or grammar/spelling.
Its really not about being smart, they just need to study the 11 plus specifically in their own time unless the school is very focused on such things.

Bexley and Kent approx top 20.%
But, having my daughter not pass by 1 and 2 points and going to local girls-only non selective school and achieving 3 solid A levels (and now has a great career) and my Son flying through both 11+ (Kent and Bexley) and doing well until GCSE - he flunked A Levels as he couldn't stand the pressure of Grammar School and no support from teachers . So no A levels. Now, he's thankfully doing an apprenticeship to a trade.
Grammar school does not suit every child. I regret that my son went to one (the best Times School). I believe that He would have achieved A levels in a less demanding environment.
Grammar school is not a good fit for many children.

Oh, absolutely. Moving to the catchment of an existing very good comp will be an acceptable solution for many. But, for those families which are financially strained and, presumably, are the most likely to decide to leave the independent sector, tutoring for a grammar may be a "cheaper" solution.

Well, data suggests that the overall number of grammar applicants has decreased. Therefore, your anecdote merely serves to confirm your misbelif.

But, for those families which are financially strained and, presumably, are the most likely to decide to leave the independent sector, tutoring for a grammar may be a "cheaper" solution

It is the groups that weigh academic selection as the sole criterion over many other factors. I believe it is a tiny minority.

Then your comment is irrelevant to my example.

A family which which prioritized academic selection above all else would have tried to send their DC to super-selective grammars in the first place rather than even selective independents, especially if they were financially precarious. Why would they have paid for something other than their "sole critieron"?

But there will be many other families who do not value academic selection purely for its own sake but who do see it as a reasonable way to put their DC in with a good group of classmates. And if even only a couple of percent more private school children end up taking grammar places, that will still be hundreds in London, which is a substantial fraction of the grammar school places available there, especially at the super-selectives.

Why would they have paid for something other than their "sole critieron"

Because there are no selective state primary schools, the closest you can get are selective intake independent junior schools or prep schools.

a substantial fraction of the grammar school places available there

Like from 10 percent to 12 percent?

I simply answered your question and highlighted how your example illustrates confirmation bias.

Ah that was your answer - well, you clearly don't understand the difference then.