How smart do you need to be to pass 11+

[Mumofgirls12341]

My 9 year old is in year 5 and preparing for 11+ and I was just wondering how smart does a child actually need to be in order to secure a place? We’re aiming at London super selectives Latymer, HBS and Woodford County Girls School.

DD has always been exceeding/greater depth since reception but I wouldn’t say she is exceptionally bright - does she have a decent shot? I have heard of people saying it’s almost impossible to get into these schools so any advice would be greatly appreciated.

@yousf - I told you the official number for 2024 for St Olave’s that was emailed by the school.

Regarding Sixth Form, that is where the real uncertainty and risk lies. I am glad you have acknowledged the higher participation in independent education historically. My question is what plans are being put in place to deal with kids leaving. We know private school kids get better GCSE grades by far, all the statistics attest to that. So what is the plan to make sure state school kids get Sixth Form places?!

I agree, as many factors are at play and the situation will be unfolding over the next couple of years. Our year 6 was caught up largely unprepared. Some people did only 6-8 weeks of prep, some like us did none. The thread is about London super selectives, 8 weeks is not nearly enough for them (but may be fine for less selective, we'll see).

@Araminta1003 The email from the school only mentions the number of applicants, not the number who actually sat the exam. This is a typical tactic in communications from London selective grammar schools. If you're serious, why not use FOI request to have the school disclose the actual numbers, like other schools do, to see the factual figures year by year?

For your comments about sixth form, if you're that bother, why not start your own thread and see how others respond? I won't be addressing this unrelated topic further in this thread.

So what is the plan to make sure state school kids get Sixth Form places?!

it will depend on the school, but it’s usual for schools to prioritise internal students first. Some 6th forms are expanding, it’s easy money (funding) & imperative now that low birth rates are going to start feeding through into the bottom of secondary.

I do think house prices will stay strong in areas around great state secondaries.

“Some 6th forms are expanding, it’s easy money (funding) & imperative now that low birth rates are going to start feeding through into the bottom of secondary.”

Thanks @Twixfixing - do you think they have enough Maths, Science and Computer Science teachers?
Because where we are choosing those A levels is hugely competitive and throwing unknown amounts of children into it with no real plan can actually hurt our economy long term. You need to take the right A levels to get on the top STEM courses etc. Class sizes could be way too big too. Current year 11s are the cohort that missed end of year 6 and had a year 7 lockdown and often were second fiddle into year 8 in many schools.

A lot of the private school kids choosing lets say MML or Music A level will be given places to fill those courses in top state schools. It seems nobody is planning properly or even cares.

Question: for the 11+ for the exams, is the syllabus only covering year 5 work and below?

This is for the north london consortium

@Araminta1003 no idea if there are enough teachers in certain subjects I just know that there are huge drops in pupil numbers eg Lambeth is one of the worst affected boroughs in London & faces a decrease of 21% in primary & 16% at secondary. Logically one of the reasons for the plummeting birth rates is COL, high house prices so this will impact teachers too if they can’t afford to live in certain areas. I would just urge anyone with younger dc to think carefully when choosing schools as you really dont want them in a school with declining numbers.

I would not mind if my DC had to catch a train at Sixth Form to access the right subjects, the problem is knowing in advance where the shortages will be. And they don’t always tell you. Would be good if vacancies were announced in a really accessible manner at all times.

For private schools Y6 curriculum is typically included in the exams (and for some but not all grammars). However, practically speaking, by the time the private school exams take place in November/January most primary schools will have covered most of the Y6 curriculum and be planning to spend the spring term consolidating and practising how to take an exam - this is certainly how it was for our very average primary, and it wasn't an issue for DD who got places in some of the most selective schools. You could ask your child's teacher what has not yet been covered and make sure you familiarise your DD with the content if you are planning this for a future year. I would also suggest teaching her how to take an exam and how to deal with multiple choice questions. What seems obvious to an adult isn't always clear to 10 or 11 year olds!

Beware that some kids are tutored to within an inch of their lives. Local mums were obsessed whether my DS was having tutoring throughout year 3/4/5. It was a firm NO! from us as DS was always naturally bright and about top 3 in class. Anyways finally panicked and realised that he needed to understand the 'methodology' of how to tackle the non verbal reasoning type questions. So I got him tutored from May till August (4 months only), 11+ exam was Sept, anyway he scraped into local grammar, his friends tutored from the breast did FAR better and reminded him weekly. Fast forward to year 10, DS is in all the top sets and 11+ heroes are not. Moral of this story is you can train kids to do well in 11+, doesn't mean they are bright enough to progress from that.

@TheRainItRaineth thank you for this. Mine are year 4 so just starting with the 10 minute tests but may tutor towards the end. I was naturally quite bright as a child but my parents never pushed so I floated along a bit however I want to give mine a chance to go somewhere like this yet not push too hard. How to know what the best approach is

I’m not sure that’s true actually. In the year above 12 kids chose to stay on, without even looking elsewhere. Otherwise kids from there usually apply to grammars as an alternative, but common practice has been to stay or apply for other independents. Going to states hasn’t been a usual option.

Hi @Mumofgirls12341 !

You can PM me if you wish and I will run through in detail what our experience was.

What counts as a superselective grammar? Google is not that helpful at defining it!

I think most people would be thinking about schools whose primary selection criterion is the exam score, so either no catchment area or a very large catchment area, and highest scores get the places, not scores above a hurdle and then distance from the school.

Essentially, schools where higher scores on the entrance exam trump distance in the admissions criteria.

@Nilon - you don’t really need a definition, just google the top state schools by results and there you will have the superselective grammars at the top. Then the mid tier superselectives just after that - they will often have one higher score for out of catchment/out of county or by score only and then a slightly lower score for those in catchment - but typically, just passing is not enough.
The more competitive it is to get in, the better the academic results. The same applies to the very top private schools.

The reason people with academically gifted kids send their DC to academically selective schools is because quite often they will alllow a DC to do 4-5 A levels and in fact, it is the norm in some of these schools. Or they will offer things like Latin & Greek. But the pace is fast and the workload is a lot for a child who is not naturally very able, so those who do get in via intense tutoring may struggle later on, and not just academically.

The decision on the number of A-levels to take is made much later in the year after enrolling in the sixth form, there is little evidence to show the correction of the number of A levels a child took vs whether they took 11+ or not . So, obviously, the main reason some parents push their children into grammar schools at the 11+ stage is to ensure they experience the joys of academic pressure and ambition at a tender age.

Heaven forbid a child themselves may be ambitious and seeking a challenge @yousf! And it’s the parents being pushed. Far more common than you may think.

It's definitely far more common for parents to drive the decision to take the 11+ exam, no doubt about that.

@yousf - there are tons of children who are academically gifted in state primary schools and bored/understretched who flourish and actually enjoy the 11 plus learning and growth from it. It just doesn’t suit your narrative. It’s part of the reason many parents do it in the first place.

Quite the opposite, most decisions are primarily driven by the parents. Obviously, you have your head in the sand, so keep telling yourself otherwise. This doesn't mean that the children aren't enjoying the process. The fact is, the vast majority of gifted children in primary schools in this country didn't pursue the grammar school route or take the 11+ exam at all.

“The fact is, the vast majority of gifted children in primary schools in this country didn't pursue the grammar school route or take the 11+ exam at all.”

And that is only because those in charge many years ago decided to get rid of most grammar schools at the time.

It is no different with let’s say learning an instrument. One of my DC started at the end of Reception and got to Grade 8 ABRSM distinction by age 10.5. There were plenty of kids who started with DC at the same time and got to grade 3/4 which is also very good and some quit and some had only just passed Grade 1 at that age.

I could have put same DC into hours of Gymnastics from 3 years old and they would have never become a winnning gymnast, the natural ability is not there. The same applies to talented footballers etc. My DC loves football and enjoys it but they excel naturally at music and academics, and that was pretty obvious to me from an early age. As it will be for most parents who have a child with a talent and gift. It may have to be nurtured by the parent but it cannot be created out of nothing. The constant denial that some children are just naturally academically gifted is quite tedious.