I’ll be paying my 20 percent

[Froginpot]

I’ll be changing my car to a much more economical one and paying the 20 percent vat on private school fees when it comes to pass.

The reality is in general the trend in the UK has been for lower and lower academic attainment and the UK educational system ( including a respectable segment of the university system ) is now sadly mediocre at best. And this is directly going to have a significant influence on the long term trajectory of post brexit Britain.

Sadly we are so mired in short term politicking and yes the politics of envy and entitlement that we seem not to notice this ominous decline.
A British education 80 years ago and A British education today are two very different concepts.
There have been some progressive improvements primarily around inclusion and pastoral care but the actual quality of academic progress..we have been left behind.

The recent riots were a very stark demonstration of how our educational systems are failing our children especially in world where misinformation and lies travel around the globe in minutes.

The number of children with Autism and other neurodiverse conditions is increasing rapidly (not limited to the UK) and the funding required to properly support these children is going to be astronomical. Let’s not even contemplate the burgeoning mental health crisis in our society and the its implications.

A truly progressive government would be looking to improve the education of all children (our future) anyway they can and would be looking to encourage and incentivise a greater uptake of children in the private sector and grammar school system as well as create more education streams such that children regardless of their abilities will receive an education that adds value to their lives and in so doing adds value to Team GB.

I wonder how it is not hypocritical that they are happy for the private hospital sector to undertake so many NHS operations to reduce waiting lists yet think it is somehow not okay to look at an education sector that is doing better and not look to collaborate similarly?

It is shamefully okay to levy a tax on the education of a sector of British citizens while actively importing academics, doctors, nurses, radiologists, radiographers, engineers etc from abroad?
If these privately educated kids finally enter the workforce, one wonders if they will work in vacuums benefitting only themselves and their loaded parents or might they work in jobs that are also useful to society..teachers, social workers, doctors,dentists, academics, estate agents, actors on corrie and all the other jobs in between?

https://www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/columnists/vat-private-school-fees-damage-nhs-pro-bono-lawyers-work-edinburgh-4818066

Just read this article and I wonder if all the unintended consequences of this policy have even been properly considered?

For those who choose to keep their children in the independent sector, it is naive to assume that all these people have tons of money sitting in their accounts ( some no doubt will but that’s no different to the general population) but as they have their individual reasons for their choice of education, I wonder how many of us will indirectly end up contributing to their 20% ?

According to the optimistic IFS figures, this tax would probably equate to 0.4 extra teachers per school if fully realised so I think I’ll much rather drive an old car and give my kids the education that I choose and the rest of my wider GB family the 20 percent. We will need all that and much more..of that much I am certain .

I wouldn’t be counting my chickens on large money gifts being guaranteed to be tax free anymore. There are rumours they will get rid of the 7 year inheritance tax exemption.

The posts reducing a state school education to merely the grades at the end of it are putting me off further 😜

Good point… VAT now or death tax later….

or... just stop working and spend it all asap. You'll get benefits as needed

People always seem to confuse success and private education. These people are successful because they have money coming out of their ears and nepotism is rife. They’d be the same if private schools didn’t exist. Wealth gives them opportunities. Not private school education. You only have to watch Made in Chelsea to see that brains and success are far less connected than money and success.

Our local private SEN school for older kids costs 46k a year per pupil and has exactly one pupil who is self funded... My point is that this funding even though it expensive is entirely justified if it means the pupils receive the additional help they need to thrive in their lives…but we seem to have been manipulated into thinking that the one child in about 107 that attend this school whose parents choose to fund their education themselves is somehow doing something wrong and needs to be punished for it. 🤔

Again the vat on school fees is not raising anything substantial towards the public purse or improving the education of other kids so honestly why is it being done? Is there a more progressive approach?

I often find in these conversations people who haven’t got the patience to read, truly research the facts or even read through the posts often resort to the usual labels of “ arrogance” “elitism” snobbery etc etc ..

You actually hit the nail on the head when you said you can easily afford private school and choose not to.. The big thing there is a CHOICE..you choose not to and I don’t expect to either approve or disapprove of your CHOICE..because it is exactly that ..I would hope you made your choice not because a “ government “ told you but rather because you thought it was the best for you and your loved ones..so it is with those who make their own choices.. So the idea of how people choose to educate their kids becoming weaponised into an “us against them” narrative is regressive and hypocritical for all the reasons stated in my original post…
I don’t expect anyone to point fingers at you or despise you because you can easily afford private school and I don’t expect anyone to present you with a halo or CBE because you chose not to.. Get it? It is your choice…and no ..I’m not astounded by your incorrect assumptions either.. i’m pretty sure I never stated the private schools were better than state schools..that might be you speaking .. and you would be incorrect.

You come across as a conceited hypocrite, but I am glad your DD is happy in her well funded private school with great teachers as my DC and their friends were happy in their state school.

@Froginpot it is not about us against them. You berated the state school system in the UK. Not everyone agrees with you. As a parent it is your responsibility to ensure your DC reaches their full potential with the resources available to you. You can afford private schools so this is a choice you are making for your child. Many others can’t afford private school and have to use the state school system.

You come across as a very entitled person. State schools work well for many children with and without SEN. The fact is many of us do not have the choice to pay for our DC to go to private school.

You raise some valid points.. they link to how we feel.. If you look through my posts though .. several months ago as it were in this thread.. I make exactly those points .. about the fact that I had an excellent state education, the fact that there are very obvious disparities in educational outcomes in different parts of the country which are actually not related to state or private education.. I do prefer facts and logic to feelings though. And the current policy is an emotive cynical response not one that will have a measurable benefit. It is a divisive political decision and as time goes on in this current administration we are seeing the consequences of other poorly conceived policies play out.

We need to move past this to looking at measurable outcomes to do things that actually work. Governments come and go very quickly but the results of our choices last much longer. So we make the best decisions we can based on the information available to us.

Entitlement is another way to describe what you feel you deserve.. Do I feel that I deserve to be able to make choices over the lives of my children? Yes. ..while they are still children..Do I feel that if I have paid all my prescribed taxes and fulfilled my civic duties and obligations that I have an entitlement to how I choose to spend my time, energy and money. Yes. I feel the same for you as well. You are entitled to all of these if they are what you want or choose. Do I feel entitled to stuff that I haven’t personally worked towards ? No.
What when it comes to policy decisions I prefer facts and logic not feelings.

@Froginpot - it seems to me that the Labour Party has made a POLITICAL choice against you and your DCs.
So why would you counter it with rationality and logic? When it is not based on rationality or logic.
Your solution is to fight back with politics. So insist that the Education Secretary fulfils her role which is to act in the best interests of all children. And if she cannot do that, that there must be political representation separately for the children in the independent and homeschooled sector. To me, she is failing in her duties and that is unacceptable. They have to give all children political representation?

I understand your outrage.. It is as you say.. but I think rationality and logic is probably in the best interests of all children which is what you also want.

Not sure why you see me as a hypocrite. I'm fairly clear about what I believe - and that my objection to this policy is due to it being counter productive (it will lose money), and based on spiteful ideology rather than sound analysis.

I am sad to see good things wilfully destroyed, like the STEM programmes. I've never suggested that this is why I'm against the policy, or that I would personally do more for state schools. I won't.

You come across as lacking the ability to see or understand anything beyond your own narrow experience, and with a lack of curiosity about how to make anything better.

I am sad to see good things wilfully destroyed, like the STEM programmes. I've never suggested that this is why I'm against the policy,

Actually, I suppose fundamentally that is why I'm against the VAT policy.

I've never pretended that my objection is about 'helping the disadvantaged kids'

It's because it's just so stupid. Why make things worse for everyone? Why destroy good things, with no benefit?

The government should at least try to be competent, and design their policies to get some benefit to balance the harms.

@strawberrybubblegum - it seems to me that the Labour Party have agreed amongst themselves to allow Economy etc to be Centric, but Education to go old school Labour. The trouble is they have forgotten the two work hand in hand! You cannot expect entrepreneurs/high tax payers to put up with dumbing down policies across all of education. They just will not stand for it.
Secondly, it seems part of the agenda is to simply scrap anything that reeks of a Tory, like Latin. So it is far left union stuff as far as Education is concerned. I am sure they will wake up and realise quite soon that the population funding them will not stand for this nonsense.

I think you're right that anything that reeks of Tory - like Latin - is on their bonfire. Unfortunately, as we see in this thread, they probably have the backing of their supporters with that.

I find a dark humour that they also associate anything to do with STEM and academic excellence with the Tories.

Or maybe it's just that anything with a Tory 'badge' needs to go, regardless of how good it was.

Enjoy your new car.
Love from a mediocre state teacher. Xx

Well my state educated DC just had to write an essay on what would happen if there were no world leaders and he (11 years old, Year 6) wrote about how AI could do a better job than politicians as they would be making decisions based on data alone, without emotion, and without trying to be popular, but he seems to have concluded that the humans would have to agree for AI (somehow he has transferred his limited knowledge on nuclear deterrent) not to be fully in charge of the military and that some override would be required, as AI would be so smart they may take over other nations. Hmmm.

DS is now pondering away and a little concerned about what jobs he himself will do in the future. I do not think any of us seem to know what education is required exactly right now to future proof for AI, except that knowing more and having critical analysis and good maths skills may be far more and not less important! Regardless of the Tories.

Perhaps Labour need to actually have a long hard think on what they are doing to education to make sure our young are prepared for a very fast changing world. And perhaps they do need to consult the experts, a mix of educators and those who know about where AI is heading. That might actually be a proper plan.

Is this your idea of being clear about what you believe? It reads like you are working it out (loud) as you go along.

Thank you so much for your useful contribution to this discussion forum.

I am glad you observe my valid points. You raise zero valid points in this rambling reply of yours!

I am not against private schools I just don’t agree with your rhetoric that state education is as bad as you make out as it is not my experience or my DC’s experience.

Have any of your children been to state schools?

It is more useful than yours!

You just waffle on and on. You make no sense!

BTW I have lived in many countries and shock horror my DC have been to private schools when we lived abroad. DC did just as-well in private and state schools. The difference is I didn’t object to paying for the choice of private school and I didn’t feel the need to slate an entire educational system.

You just talk nonsense. I base my opinion on lived experiences.

Yep their posts ramble on and on and go in circles.

'My kids were fine' isn't a good answer to pointing out that Labour shutting down a load of academic development programmes is bad for kids.

'Lived experience' isn't much use if you don't think about it.

Your post literally just put me down. And said nothing else.

That isn't discussion, it's just being rude.