I’ll be paying my 20 percent

[Froginpot]

I’ll be changing my car to a much more economical one and paying the 20 percent vat on private school fees when it comes to pass.

The reality is in general the trend in the UK has been for lower and lower academic attainment and the UK educational system ( including a respectable segment of the university system ) is now sadly mediocre at best. And this is directly going to have a significant influence on the long term trajectory of post brexit Britain.

Sadly we are so mired in short term politicking and yes the politics of envy and entitlement that we seem not to notice this ominous decline.
A British education 80 years ago and A British education today are two very different concepts.
There have been some progressive improvements primarily around inclusion and pastoral care but the actual quality of academic progress..we have been left behind.

The recent riots were a very stark demonstration of how our educational systems are failing our children especially in world where misinformation and lies travel around the globe in minutes.

The number of children with Autism and other neurodiverse conditions is increasing rapidly (not limited to the UK) and the funding required to properly support these children is going to be astronomical. Let’s not even contemplate the burgeoning mental health crisis in our society and the its implications.

A truly progressive government would be looking to improve the education of all children (our future) anyway they can and would be looking to encourage and incentivise a greater uptake of children in the private sector and grammar school system as well as create more education streams such that children regardless of their abilities will receive an education that adds value to their lives and in so doing adds value to Team GB.

I wonder how it is not hypocritical that they are happy for the private hospital sector to undertake so many NHS operations to reduce waiting lists yet think it is somehow not okay to look at an education sector that is doing better and not look to collaborate similarly?

It is shamefully okay to levy a tax on the education of a sector of British citizens while actively importing academics, doctors, nurses, radiologists, radiographers, engineers etc from abroad?
If these privately educated kids finally enter the workforce, one wonders if they will work in vacuums benefitting only themselves and their loaded parents or might they work in jobs that are also useful to society..teachers, social workers, doctors,dentists, academics, estate agents, actors on corrie and all the other jobs in between?

https://www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/columnists/vat-private-school-fees-damage-nhs-pro-bono-lawyers-work-edinburgh-4818066

Just read this article and I wonder if all the unintended consequences of this policy have even been properly considered?

For those who choose to keep their children in the independent sector, it is naive to assume that all these people have tons of money sitting in their accounts ( some no doubt will but that’s no different to the general population) but as they have their individual reasons for their choice of education, I wonder how many of us will indirectly end up contributing to their 20% ?

According to the optimistic IFS figures, this tax would probably equate to 0.4 extra teachers per school if fully realised so I think I’ll much rather drive an old car and give my kids the education that I choose and the rest of my wider GB family the 20 percent. We will need all that and much more..of that much I am certain .

Well seeing as the BBC confirmed that the majority of wealthier parents choose state schools and buy their privilege through housing in catchment of best state schools then they are already buying superior education.

Well seeing as the BBC confirmed that the majority of wealthier parents choose state schools and buy their privilege through housing in catchment of best state schools then they are already buying superior education.

Ah, the law of unintended consequences strikes again…

It's always intrigued me that some of the most vocal supporters of this policy have seemed very attracted to the idea of sticking it to the toffs at Eton.

Yet was obvious that the Etons would be the ones that actually came off well - a larger pool of parents for whom the VAT would be a mild irritation, and the prospective recipients of large cheques from the Treasury. Not quite what some of the lefties had in mind I suspect.

Yet again The really rich don't care because they can afford it, the poor don't care because it doesn't affect them and everyone in the middle pays

You do realise as a parent paying for private school you already pay towards state schools and then don't even take up the provision, taking a burden from the state, and now you'll be paying twice for something you don't use. It's ludicrous.

The education budget doesn't need to come from those willing and able to choose private education. It's a pure politics of envy policy which won't even benefit the kids in state schools as class sizes will go up and I'd bet my mortgage all these new teachers won't appear as labour are promising.

Most parents I know who use private schools do so because the local state ones are appalling, and they aren't wealthy families they cut back on whatever they can to get their kids a decent education. A fair few are on bursaries and have kids with additional needs as well. It's crazy to ask them to pay 20% more for the privilege of relieving the state of their responsibility.

The really rich don't care because they can afford it

They won’t even be paying the VAT because they’ve pre-paid their fees.

Sorry, should say the rich don't care because they can afford it or are rich enough to find ways to avoid it

And yet here you are, as always.

No that is very wrong. What you want is to demonise my post because you want to post an “elitist” label on my post where I’m happy that the poor “get crumbs from my “preferred luxurious educational institutions “

My point is that the society will progress much better if we move forward together not divide and try to conquer.

A better educated society is more able to assess how well they are governed, better informed about the pros and cons of proposed legislation, better able to see and critique what the governing elite tell them and are not as easy to mislead in general. I wonder if we have rather any of these happening on a national scale recently?

As an employer, I see a good range of how our educational system is doing when we try to recruit and more frustrating for me actually is when I see the amazing potential of some of our best employees that just has not been explored during their education and you find yourself thinking of their literacy etc when you want to help them progress in their careers.

Actually what you will find from the data is that there are multiple state comprehensives in London that actually send more kids to “Oxbridge” than some Grammars and most independent schools.

The reality is that when you look at the facts and figures, there are many reasons why we are not optimising the academic potential of our children and actually what I would prefer is a system where we actually look at what’s working, what’s not working and the reasons why it’s the case and find progressive ways to sort this out.

Some of the Grammars in West Kent have attainment scores that Independent schools can only dream of? Why is this the case? Can this be replicated? Another excellent example is Northern Ireland, again supposedly a really deprived area but check the attainment levels and you will see that the schools in Northern Ireland ( State sector) do much better Middle England. Why is this? Can we replicate this?
Say for instance Mrs Smith thinks her LO will thrive in a highly academic environment ( this is literally not the case for every child and academic success is actually a different picture for every child regardless of the sector they are educated in) How does she access this sort of tuition for her child without having to pay the hefty fees in the private sector? And if she wishes to pay then how do we not demonise her choices?
I am passionate about British education and I have spent years looking at the figures and statistics of the United Kingdom. Don’t presume to know what I want .

Why do you believe a private education is superior to a state education? The fact is, most PE kids are from wealthier backgrounds than SE kids. Straight away that gives them a step up, as we can all agree that poverty is the biggest factor in terms of having a productive life.
small class sizes, ability to afford tutors, ability to afford educational activities and educated parents all work to ensure a PE kid will likely achieve higher than a SE kid.

"ability to afford tutors, ability to afford educational activities and educated parents " applies just as much to state parents as indy.
There is enormous inequality in state education at the moment, it's a postcode lottery and the main reason why parents choose indy.

This is wholly inaccurate and disingenuous . The statement doesn't apply just as much to state parents as independent school parents. It only applies to a percentage of wealthier state school parents. The majority of state school DC will not have access to those things. If you look at the very wealthy, the vast majority will be using private education for their children.

The majority of every income decile, including the top one, attend state schools actually.

Sorry I refuse that completely. Please see article from BBC that I posted plus how many threads are there on MN from people talking about tutoring/moving house to best catchments? The tutoring industry is worth millions.
93% of parents choose state education therefore it is safe to say the majority of wealthy people choose state. 550,000 indy kids so approx 300,000 parents Vs 9 million in state so approx 6 million parents.
You are telling me that there are only 300,000 "wealthier" parents in whole of UK? According to MN wealthy = anyone earning over 40K so only 300,000 parents earning over 40K in UK?

When I refer to the extremely rich, I am not referring to the top decile. In any case, earned income is only one element of wealth. A truly wealthy person may have little or no earned income. I know many families where grandparents foot the bill for all their grandchildren's school fees.

Do you really believe that independent school DC are not tutored and that it is only for state school DC? Surely you don't believe that 93% of parents CHOOSE state school education. The vast majority have no choice.

What's that got to do with your initial point? The wealthy parents who could afford indy but choose not to can certainly make that choice.
We only had 1 choice of a dire state so were forced to choose indy. We made other choices knowing that ie not getting bigger house, only having 1 child etc. Choices.
The fact remains that wealthy parents do use state and that there is massive inequality in the state system. In the NE for another successive year GCSE results are lowest in the country. Compare that to London etc. Good state education is a postcode lottery.

Probably author attended one of the worst state schools?

The level of "inaccuracy" is shocking, borderline stupid

There are many people who cannot neither move or pay private school fees. Your posts suggest that you are so caught up in your own narrative that you seem to think choosing state schools is an active choice for everyone when in many cases it is not. The cost of private school is beyond many families. It is silly to just look at income, there are many, many other factors at play. It is pretty obvious.

So are you saying that you deliberately explained it wrongly. Somehow I don't think so.

Well we only have income, as do the other indy parents I know and I can give you 1000s of examples. Again goes back to choices for some.
Of course I'm not suggesting everyone is in the position to make an active choice but you also have to acknowledge that wealth isn't confined to indy schools, whether that's assets or money.
We did state primary so well aware thanks.

Well you may be aware but what you have written does suggest otherwise. For every "wealthy" child in a state school, there are many more whose parents have no choice. And with regard to the "wealth" statistics, it is far too superficial. Quite apart from anything else, the disparity in house prices across the country makes a huge difference to disposable income.

Unlike Canterbury, I can give you better data on PS fees, and I would posit the majority are paid via income.

The school group that my DC attended anyway.

How much do you pay on fuel?

Even if I stopped driving and walked everywhere instead, it would only be about the amount I pay on fuel averaged over the year. One lot of £15k of school fees, is £3k VAT, which is about £60 a week.