How many kids do you know definitely leaving private for state?

[Quodraceratops]

I'd be very interested to know how many children people know of who are definitely leaving their private school for a state school - not people with plans to do so in future years, solely those definitely going now / in 2025.
For myself - large Scottish all years school, I only have knowledge of my early primary kids's classes - no-one leaving so far (but I'm guessing early primary may be less affected as Labour have been signalling this policy for a while so you wouldn't start if you couldn't afford VAT).

1/3 apparently amp.theguardian.com/education/article/2024/jul/24/third-of-team-gb-athletes-for-paris-olympics-educated-privately

I know the head of a sw London prep school, part of a group. She says they aren't passing on the costs but the staff are not taking pay rises and there is no money for repais, books etc. She says that existing parents aren't leaving but they aren't getting new kids sign up.

@pintofsnakebite thank you for the link.

DH is going to visit a family member whose child is in PS next week and I’m very interested to see what she says about it.
She is an older parent and decided only the best would do for DC, so has sent them to a PS on the opposite side of the city she lives in.
She did have an outstanding primary 5 minutes walk away but wouldn’t even consider it. He’s now in year 7 and I know she struggles with the costs already, she should be retiring soon but no chance of that.
PS hasn’t been the perfect choice she assumed either, the travel is long and expensive and she’s had some issues with the school over sporting choices. But I know she feels like she can’t take him out now. Clearly she should have sent him to the local primary first and saved the cash for secondary. But she has another 7 years plus uni costs now.

I wonder what the conversations are like between grandparents paying fees and parents at the moment? IIRC a significant proportion of fees are paid by grandparents; I wonder whether they are committed for the long haul. It might also explain why many people are staying put -they aren’t actually the ones paying the fees.

@noblegiraffe ”Don’t try to pit teachers against teachers!”

I really don’t understand why a question asking how teachers will be supported to move sectors or retrain is pitting teachers against teachers?
As a state school parent I would like to do know how we RETAIN experienced teachers across all sectors. The whole point is that good teachers is so much more than just subject knowledge?

One of the reasons I chose the grammar schools my DC are at is because they put retention of experienced teachers at the top of their priority even if it means worse facilities.
In our primary the same - very low turnover of staff as we do everything to support and retain. We also have a lot of ex pupils joining and ex parent TAs.

Also I think it is fair to say that for PS teachers who may also have kids at the school and discounts, it is really a very difficult situation if a school folds/they lose their job. Some state schools allow admission of teachers’ children as a priority, but not all.

You didn't ask a question about 'how teachers will be supported to move sectors' though, you said 'what is your view of fellow teachers in the private sector losing their jobs because of this policy?'.

Saying that private school teachers will lose their jobs because of this policy and then asking a state school teacher what they think about that is clearly not a question about retraining teachers.

But it’s still a valid question. Perhaps uncomfortable for you to think about, though.

What's not clear is how much the private school itself is responsible for this success though, as opposed to it simply being more likely that top sports people had parents who had enough money (both funding sport and cost of going to competitions etc) and time (to support the child in their sport including taking to training and competitions); which probably has at least some correlation with those who use private schools.

None

@redskydarknight I agree

And those parents have to be motivated and empowered to apply for private school. And private schools are willing to entice them for the kudos.

It also completely depends on the sport. Only private school children have access to some sports facilities and there is no incentive to build them in the community if they are catered for at school. It's quite difficult to get into rowing etc.

We sold off state school playing fields in the 80s, whilst our nearby prep school has a golf course.

I know two boys and a girl who have Olympic potential. One is at private school on a full bursary. The other two are at state school. They all seem to be doing very well.

Not at all, I answered it upthread when she asked it.

My point is that I could see what she was trying to do.

This isn’t my policy, I’m not particularly convinced about it either way. What is pissing me off, however, is the amount of frothing about how this policy is going to ruin the state sector. Posters talking about large class sizes, lack of teachers etc and how this will be the thing to push them over the edge. Fuck off. This is coming from people who didn’t give the shiniest shit about state education being ground into dust over the last 14 years until it could possibly be used as an argument to support them saving some money.

As I said, I’ve asked lots of state school teachers and this really isn’t the thing that is worrying them this year.

And the amount of threads it’s has generated! People say I start a lot of threads about education - the amount of posts about state education policy over the years has been utterly eclipsed by this single policy, affecting 7% of pupils, in a few months.

So yeah asking a state teacher ‘what about the poor jobless private school teachers?’. I see you and your self-interest.

I suspect it's a mix. Private schools do a lot more sports - which gives kids fitness, general sporting capability, exposure to a lot of different sports - and have specialised sports teachers and a culture of taking sports to competition level. They train hard, and take teams of kids to national competions from an early age.

Some children and parents in the state sector will of course have the knowledge and drive to do it themselves, but some (who may have become top athletes with PS support) won't.

Private schools are also much more relaxed than state schools about children taking time out of school for high-level involvement in sports, music, acting etc. It's part of PS culture to support children individually to succeed in whatever their 'thing' is - not only academic - and they have the staff to still get the kids up to speed on academics in the shorter time they're in school.

But yes, it's also parents. Getting to a high level in sports takes money for training and kit and transport to competitions. It also requires enormous amounts of time and commitment from parents as well as children. There will be a correlation between parents who having the resources (financial and personal) to support that and sending kids to PS.

Controversiallly, I'd also suggest that high level sporting success often involves parents having drive and a desire to succeed even at high cost - high level sports really does exact a high personal cost - which I suggest will also correlate with them putting their kids in PS. Note: only correlation. There are of course people of all types in both sectors. But parents with that drive will more often be successful themselves, and also ambitious for their DC's success in all areas.

The percentage of kids in private schools is tiny. The percentage of kids who will have to switch to state because of this policy is a small subset of that. From what some on here post, some kids switching to state school is going to cause the tax take to collapse. Maybe some parents will up their game and take on more hours to afford the increase, yet that doesn't seem to be mentioned, only the handwringing woe.

Absolutely correct that it is a very small percentage of children in private. So it stands to reason the income gain from this policy is pretty insignificant in the grand scheme and a relatively small proportion switching sector will turn it into a loss. This is the point most are making, not ‘handwringing’ as you put it. And I have no doubt the majority of state teachers won’t be concerned about private school children entering their classes - why would they?! As you said, they teach the children in front of them. Heads in competitive areas have expressed concerns that demand for their schools will be overtaken by children who would have been in the private sector, pushing good schools further out of reach of those with lower incomes.

Thing is, though, isn’t being a “good school” largely a result of the intake going to the school? More middle-class parents being pushed out of school A and into currently-less-desirable school B will almost certainly result in school B being considered a more desirable school than it previously was, within a few years (shrug). This literally happened in the area I live in, where the population grew a lot in short period of time due to more housing being built at a rapid pace.

I’m sure there are cases where the good-ness or bad-ness of a school is genuinely to do with the school’s scheme of work or quality of teachers rather than intake, but…

@noblegiraffe - this is not about self interest. But clearly it has touched a nerve?

A number of teaching unions represent state and private school teachers. Could that be it? An inherent conflict of interest towards this policy? What specifically are the teaching unions doing for PS teachers in regard to this policy?

And whether you believe it or not @noblegiraffe - I am sorry to tell you I am definitely not a Tory!
The divide and rule type politics is not my thing whatsoever! I am very very surprised that a Labour Government is choosing to go down that route.

My eldest daughter year 9, 2 have left. Not unusual at all. However no new joiners which is unusual.
My middle daughter Year 6, no leavers but no new joiners. Very unusual as many normally join in year 6 to avoid the entrance exam for year 7 and to have a smooth transition to the senior school.
I have seen several of this daughter’s classmates at the open days for local state schools. Many are biding their time until the next natural break point before moving, which is exactly what we will do.
It’s not about the no. of leavers, it’s about the no. that will now never start.
By Sept 27 all my 3 will be out of private, unless we move to Europe sooner on digital nomad visas.

Yes me. The double bind being that deregistering a send child who at the time also wasn't coping, left us in a precarious position and we spent thousands more on tutors that we couldn't afford either whilst trying to find state places which I did but in a neighbouring borough which is now a massive trek there and back daily for mid afternoon pick up. I'm lucky I got them in but there was no choice and it has had huge impact and consequences on me professionally and mentally.

We will be moving at next natural breaks. I know some children (senior) who have left due solely to the VAT. To introduce it like this is insane.

What are you on about? The only nerve that has been touched is the one where there are suddenly concerns about the impact on the state sector of this policy which affects rich people when we’ve had 14 years of shit state education policy that barely raised an eyebrow.

I’ve no idea what the unions think about this policy. I’m sure they’d get involved if private schools tried to cut teacher pay or something over it, they’ve been heavily involved in all the pensions stuff.

@noblegiraffe - the Government has told PS to cut costs and not pass on the full VAT. As salaries represent the majority of costs, mainly in small PS, that essentially means you have a Government telling PS to sack some teachers?

And I completely agree it is totally unacceptable that our state schools have been so underfunded that management, often on better pay, has chosen inexperienced younger & cheaper staff, over retention of more experienced staff. It is ludicrous! But just because the Tories were utterly crap, it does not mean we keep our fingers crossed hoping blindly for better with this new lot. We have to demand better!

Yes, exactly as the last government told state schools. In fact they implied qualified teachers were not really necessary, put in ‘instructors’, cut support staff affecting SEN, build lecture theatres so kids could be shouted at with info 60 kids at a time, sack e pensive experienced staff, train them on express routes because who needs pedagogy… shall I go on?

Cutting costs is not new - in state schools it’s a way of life. Didn’t see the unions do much there.

Given the vast difference in funding between private and state schools, if private schools can’t find any costs to cut, I’m sure they could ask their nearest state school for advice. For example they could cut the length of the lunch break to half an hour which would save on lunchtime staffing and also enable them to finish school earlier so save on electricity. Or they could turn the heating off at 11am in winter and have the kids wear coats in the classroom. Use cheaper meat in the school lunches, stop providing refreshments at parents evenings etc etc.

I mean, state schools have lots of experience there.