Labour advised to finish closing all grammars

[twistyizzy]

Advice currently being given to Labour by same group that support VAT on private schools.

Agree the key issue the lack of support at home. There must be huge numbers of bright kids who don't get to unlock their potential because their parents haven't taught them the value of it and don't nurture their education. You could put them all in selective schools but if there isn't the support at home then these kids just simply won't do as well as their peers who have parental support to underpin their education. This is the biggest barrier most children face, not whether they can get into a selective school or not.

I was just talking to DP about this who sort of unlocked my feelings on it. Grammar schools aren’t ‘unequal’ because every child has the right to sit the test if they (well, their parents) want to. He said the real barrier is that because there are so few grammars now that makes it inaccessible. So the answer is more grammars. I agree.

“Comprehensive schools across the country participate in UKMT challenges, and you might be surprised to find that many of the finalists who reach the IMO or similar competitions are from comprehensive schools.“

Why would I be surprised? If only 5% are in grammars and 6-7% in privates (many of those not even selective, and I do not know the percentage in private selective secondary of the top of my head) then the vast majority of kids are in the comp system. But I am sure the superselective private or states will be overly represented as compared to how many kids are in those two types of schools percentage wise.

If people wanted to identify gifted kids and educate them to their potential they could easily administer CAT tests in primary and try and make them as untutorable as possible (no past papers type stuff and Cambridge uni etc could devise a test, like they have for Eton College, for example).

People do identify gifted kids. There used to be a ‘gifted and talented’ cohort identified in every school.

But the Tories got rid of the money to support them. So it became pointless. However, there’s a lot of misunderstanding on this thread.

In every school there is tons of data on every kid. And all their academic potential is on there. From every year.

The 11-plus exam is not suitable and definitely requires tutorable. I’m not sure which Eton College test you are talking about, it is also tutorable! The King's scholars test happens at age 13. That is why people argue it is more sensible to have more high-performing sixth forms across the country.

I am just responding to your argument that not only those schools get properly challenged at the UKMT level.

No Eton have some IQ test at age 10/11 as well, Eton List Test. The later one (Kings Scholarship) requires extensive preparation as a lot of it goes well beyond (past papers on the website I think). All the bursary boys take the Eton List Test at 10/11 or if they only apply in Year 8, then as well. That one is more like a CAT test but nobody really knows. It was specifically designed by Cambridge University.

“In every school there is tons of data on every kid. And all their academic potential is on there. From every year.“

Yes there is loads of data, but things keep changing. Like my Year 8 sat a test in Reception on a trial basis and the teacher told me he was off the scale and meant to get all 9s at GCSE. They only ran that for 1 year I believe. Year 2 they have just scrapped SATS KS1 and they are now optional. Different secondary schools sit CATs at completely different times etc. There is no real consistency for all kids and very difficult to really compare from year to year either, especially for the Covid years.

No, internal data.

I mean scores are passed from year 6 to 7. Loads of kids sit CATs in Yr 7. But it all informs teaching and potential. It’s not public and it doesn’t matter when they sit tests or what tests really. Different schools use different things.

But they all produce the same results for teachers to use

I think you're taking "closing" too literally here.

I think it would be good for my area. We have church schools, grammar schools, or one school that's falling down. The bigger of the church schools is very up itself, and very hard to get into, parents start attending church when their children are around 7 and then stop when their youngest child is 12, it's all totally pointless.
All the schools apart from the falling down one are within a square mile in the city centre so it shouldn't turn into a catchment house fight, currently if your DC isn't going to grammar and you don't want to pretend to go to church or go for the falling down one, you have to travel to a village.

“Different schools use different things.“

Well precisely and then it is often also just to inform generally because it gives a snapshot of potential on a particular day.

They do not produce 100 per cent reliable results, far from it.

Up North, grammar means private school to many.

My goodness! You know there are plenty of grammar schools up north? Just not in the NE. And some northerners are actually smart enough to understand the difference between a grammar school and a private school. Obviously most northerners will be too busy feeding their whippets to notice.

I am a Northerner. And, no there are not plenty of grammars up North. There are none in major cities such as Leeds, Sheffield or Newcastle. And when I mentioned to friends that my son was going to grammar they assumed I meant private because there are schools in the North with grammar in their title which are actually private.

https://www.kentonline.co.uk/kent/news/the-astonishing-drop-in-private-school-pupils-getting-into-303104/

Personally I agree with Webb, I think you can add a few points here and there with tutoring but a kid needs the raw ability to get in in the first place, work fast under pressured time conditions.
Just because a ton of parents waste money and fuel the tutoring business, it does not follow that tutoring alone can get an average child in.
Let’s say in Kent, if the grammars on the whole (ignoring the superselective ones) are aimed at top 25% cognitive ability - then yes maybe a rich parent can tutor a top 30% pupil in but not an average one. And yes maybe a top 20% poor kid with no prep won’t get in - but this is why you have the Headteacher Assessments. If the head is on the ball, they know their poorer clever kids and they can appeal. And the teachers throughout primary can tell the parents that the kid is exceeding age related expectations.

Define North. There are several in Yorkshire for example.

Yorkshire is a huge place. There are no state grammars is Leeds, Sheffield or York. The majority of grammar schools are in London, the SE and the Midlands.

Eton conducts the ISEB pre-test as the first round, followed by the Eton List Test in the second round. Thousands of prep schools and tutoring company offer customized tutoring for these exams.

Lincs is pretty red on the map. Thanks for telling me something about Yorkshire 🤣

Guess what? Cambridge used to claim that the CEM test for 11+ was tutor-proof, but they no longer have that label on the test!

Shame. Grammar schools are about the only good thing left about education in the UK.

The top set at an academically selective school is likely to be more advanced than the top set at a non-selective school. This is true for both academically selective state and independent schools. And, yes, many academically selective schools do use setting, at least for some subjects.

@OvertutoredMum - the Eton List test is as untutorable as they come.

You can also argue that Cambridge uni entry tests are now tutorable. Hire an Indian Maths PhD etc etc. for intense preparation. It happens you know.

Tests for 10-year-olds are generally much more tutorable than those for 16-year-olds because they cover simpler content, have more predictable formats, and students at that age benefit more from targeted tutoring. By 16, students are expected to have a higher level of independence and self-study skills, making tutoring less about basic instruction and more about refining and applying knowledge, so effect are much marginal to the students aptitude and hardworking.

@OvertutoredMum - I completely disagree with you. It is much harder to bring up a child’s reasoning skills. They are more innate. The type of question can be practised, but that is it.
You might as well now say that all CAT4 testing is entirely tutorable and lot of the CAT testing employers use etc.
GCSEs on the other hand are very prescriptive content based exams.