Faith school cap ending - is it inclusive?

[mids2019]

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2024/may/01/england-scraps-50-rule-on-faith-school-admissions

Is this policy biased against atheists? Is it a policy that may deny access those from minority faiths access to decent schools? Interesting move in a more secular society.

It’s dreadful news - and incredibly worrying. Faith schools should be abolished - or at the very least not funded by taxpayers money. And the idea of them running special schools is very concerning. An appalling decision all round. But they’re desperate I guess - it’s one way to fill their pews 🤬

Faith schools make as much sense to me as faith hospitals. If you can't imagine being turned away from your local hospital because you're the wrong religion, why would you accept it from a school?

As a point of law how is faith discrimination allowed in education? Is this a means to keep minority faith/ethnicities from traditionally good 'white' schools as there are a disproportionate number of white Christians?

Faith schools should be banned, religion has no place in schools except as a "some people believe" idea.

I think it's ultimately impossible to go into someone's mind and determine if they are a true believer. I think therefore this is about welcoming people of certain communities.

Has access to faith schools aided social mobility by allowing disadvantaged children access to historically better schools?

I notice that certainly there was praise from no 10 with the Michaela prayer case and now a launch for more exclusivity at Christian schools essentially. I actually think that the Michaela verdict was right but I am a bit mixed about exclusive faith achooling.

Our local Catholic school is more ethnically diverse than the local comprehensive. Its very popular with overseas families with a Catholic faith.

The change supports a need for faith groups to put more money into education as budgets are not going far enough. Surely this is good news. The move benefits people of no faith too if education budget increasing in this manner.

There are lots of people of all faiths who support their children being educated in that faith. It is an important part of education and it's why churches have historically been involved in education 1) help people 2) spread the faith. Win win.

C of E schools would have about 5 pupils if they followed this rule then. I teach in a C of E primary with 450 children. I don't think a single one of them go to church. I've taught there for 8 years and know nearly all of the children and families as the deputy head. We wouldn't have anyone to teach in our school 🤦‍♀️

Catholic and Methodists are very diverse churches. I wouldn't want to make an assumption that CofE or Jewish groups who be particularly all white either. There is certainly diversity in evangelical groups. Clearly Islamic groups will be building schools for the benefit of a majority non-white population. I think if anything this move large benefits all races much more.

It’s been worse in Liverpool for years. About 98% of faith school places allocated on faith grounds, with the remainder for kids from care. And by faith they mean worship every other weekend minimum for two years prior to admission, for each child (so you can’t just quit worship once one child’s is in to get the sibling in)

I think it's ultimately impossible to go into someone's mind and determine if they are a true believer. I think therefore this is about welcoming people of certain communities.

But that, in turn, inevitably excludes other communities. I'm an atheist and wouldn't want to send my child to a faith school anyway, but if a circumstance arose where holding my nose and professing, say, Christianity were somehow to be absolutely necessary then it would indeed be quite difficult for anyone to prove that I didn't really mean it and was just going through the motions. But if I were Muslim, for example, then that would be an absolute barrier in that circumstance.

I worked in many C of E schools in my teaching career.Im an atheist . It didn't matter as a teacher, no one asked, I didn't mention it. For children to attend a faith school a christening certificate was required. If your child wasn't christened then you went into the 'other' section to be allocated after the faith places.

@mids2019 "Has access to faith schools aided social mobility by allowing disadvantaged children access to historically better schools"

No. Faith schools are only better because they are back door selective.

I think this needs some perspective here. This is being introduced as a sop to the Catholics who want to build new schools but don’t want to do it with the current 50% cap in place. Like other faith schools, they only want to teach people of the faith. CofE schools are a different kettle of fish and most don’t have faith admissions criteria - they are just like any other state school. This is mainly to do with newly built free schools and will have very little effect on current schools already in existence.

Faith schools shouldn't exist in the state system at all. Anything funded by the state should be available for all. This is dreadful news.
It is just a consultation though- not sure what Labour policy would be?

I find it strange that people simultaneously argue

"Faith schools are wrong/dangerous/bad and it's not fair they exist"

And

"How dare they potentially prevent my child from going there"

Faith schools - on the whole - get good results. There seems to be a correlation between the "faith" aspect of the school and the results. Parents should be able to choose an education that matches the values they have for their child. Eg many feel uncomfortable with the government guidance on trans issues/whatever else, and wish that when their child is being taught, they have the faith side of things put forward as well as the standard secular side.

Sometimes on MN I feel like atheists think religion is a hobby to be left at home. It underpins someone's entire worldview, values etc. they are going to want their child to be raised with those values (+ if good parents, a healthy exposure to other beliefs too).

You can't raise children in a vacuum. A secular/atheist state school isn't a "neutral" environment. It teaches just as much about worldview, values etc as a faith school.

@anonhop "Faith schools - on the whole - get good results."

Because they are de facto selective. I don't want my children to go to a faith school. It seems entirely inappropriate that people of faith have access to 30% more taxpayer funded schools than people without faith.

For the avoidance of doubt, I think schools should be secular, not atheist.

If the Catholic Church wishes to set up catholic-only schools then as far as I’m concerned then they can crack on - but these schools should get zero state funding. If your school is state funded, it should not select on the grounds of religion at all.

Fyi, here is the consultation: https://consult.education.gov.uk/faith-schools-policy-team/faith-school-designation-reforms/

But surely people of faith aren't more intelligent naturally than people without faith. So they're not academically selective. There must be something about them that produces good results (which is why lots of parents w/o faith choose them, while simultaneously bashing them).

I 10000% support your choice. I'm not saying I'd choose one necessarily. I think every parent should have an option to educate their child in an environment that matches their values, which you have done, so that's great.

In practice those things often look very similar.

Secular also isn't "neutral"

Faith schools should be completely banned. Parents can give their children a religious education at home or send them to religious school at the weekend. It's unbelievable that state funded faith schools still exist in the UK.

All schools should be open to all children.
The faith of a child's parents shouldn't limit the quality of their education.

Over 55% of the uk population don't belong to any religion and the percentage is much higher in young people (you.gov data)

The statistics speak for themselves.

@anonhop "But surely people of faith aren't more intelligent naturally than people without faith. So they're not academically selective. "

They are selective because you have to "jump through a hoop"to get a place. Which excludes many children from disadvantaged backgrounds, whose parents may not have the knowledge,the time, the awareness or the organizational skills to find and jump through the hoop. Hence better results- children from privileged backgrounds tend to do better. Incidentally, privileged does not mean rich.

I did not get what I want-I wanted a secular school, which do not exist in the UK.

Atheist and secular are very different.

I hadn't thought of that so thanks for bringing it up. Applying for any school is jumping through hoops. Children whose parents 'jump through the hoops' will probably always do better than those that don't, wherever they end up. But I'd be happy for there to be more support for parents with the application process etc.

The word secular has a different meaning to the word atheist, but in practice in running a school, it's quite similar.

Values infiltrate everything we do & speak about and it affects every subject. Removing religious values from school isn't a neutral move & looks very much like how an atheist would run a school.

We can agree to disagree, though. I think diversity of thought + parental choice is a good thing.