Faith school cap ending - is it inclusive?

[mids2019]

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2024/may/01/england-scraps-50-rule-on-faith-school-admissions

Is this policy biased against atheists? Is it a policy that may deny access those from minority faiths access to decent schools? Interesting move in a more secular society.

"The word secular has a different meaning to the word atheist, but in practice in running a school, it's quite similar. "

This really, really isn't so. But t hey ho.

Explain to me why people of faith should have a choice of 30% more tax payer funded schools than people without faith.

Imagine living opposite a great faith school and they having to walk past it to take you kid to a much worse school a couple of miles away. I'd be so mad every single day.

How can anyone think that's ok!

It's fine in principle saying faith schools should be banned - but many faith schools are 90% funded by the faith, with a lot of faith school buildings being owned by churches

People are delusional if they think the state is funding everything in all faith schools

Our government is on its knees as it is - where on earth will they find the money to buy thousands of faith school buildings plus and then cover the funding currently provided by the church?!

A disproportionate number of white Christians in England?!

Who'd have thought it!!!

Give your head a wobble!!

Historically Church schools existed because the church set them up and educated the children before the State thought it was necessary.

Now they want to fund more schools...

It wouldn't be needed if the government funded schools properly.

Its because we all say 10 Hail Mary's a day and pray for academic success and only allow the children to have holy water in their water bottles.

No, they don't want to fund more schools. If they did, they could set up Voluntary Aided schools. They want the government to set up new church schools under the free school programme, with no financial contribution from the church, but with 100% faith admissions.

👏👏👏 I couldn’t agree more - well said!!

This argument is a red herring in this debate. It's already perfectly possible for churches to set up Voluntary Aided schools, with 100% faith admissions, if the church contributes 10% of the capital costs. However they now want the same admissions privileges for schools where they contribute 0% of the cost. It is a step too far.

Which is fine if you have choice but not if you don’t (more rural areas). And I object to my taxes being used to teach children religious observance in a school my kids wouldn’t be welcome in. If religions want to build schools they can bloody well pay for them - not like the Catholic religion isn’t bloody loaded.

Not remotely delusional - it’s an end goal. We should be looking to reduce religious division in schools not bloody increase it. So backwards 🤬

UtterlyOtterly · Today 06:54
Faith schools should be banned, religion has no place in schools except as a "some people believe" idea”

Yep, this.

Agree!

I also agree with the "jumping through hoops" thing. Also it required you to have a church in the locality that you can attend regularly and do have the time to attend on a Sunday morning. Typically lower paid workers who work shifts might not be able to do this which again is backdoor selective.

My DH has worked in a few catholic schools, difficult to avoid them in the NW, and he's certainly been asked in interviews what his faith is (no faith), he's gotten the job and but it's one of the factors that stopped him being promoted further. It's openly known in catholic schools that non faith are less likely to be promoted.

@RemarkablyBrightCreature

But how do you propose we reach that end goal? The government simply does not have the money

I get it's what you would like, but we can't afford it

Churches have subsidised education for a long time and it will be nigh on impossible for the government to cover the amount they do

@boxedhedge - I get it doesn't apply to the new ones, and I do believe that faith schools should be at a minimum partially funded by the faith if they want any input

My point was to people saying we should do away with faith schools altogether. Fact is, we can't afford to, the government does not have the money, so it's a moot point

Yes, people who say "ban faith schools" are (unfortunately) whistling in the wind and are like bulls in china shop in debates like this. If only they'd park their wish-list outside and get behind the things that can be influenced here and now, then the debate would be clearer and simpler.

Churches want faith schools because they know they need to start the brainwashing young.

If as an adult you had never heard of any religion and someone tried to start a group and outlined the rules as per many of these religions you would run a mile. Of course there would be a small amount if vulnerable people who would be taken in,

Faith schools tend to get better results as they are stricter and not liberal in their views. I mean look at the Catholic church's stance on abortion, Islam's stance on girls covering their hair. It's so archaic and very worrying that the state is paying for children to be educated in this way.

@jackstini " many faith schools are 90% funded by the faith"

Source, please?

@makeanddo "Faith schools tend to get better results as they are stricter and not liberal in their views."

No. They get better results because they have back door selection.

Faith schools should not receive any form of government funding.

Within a mile ish of our home there are six primary schools. Three of those are Faith schools with criteria restricting admission. I would be fine with this if the other three schools deprioritised religious children, but they don’t. It’s bonkers and so unfair.

And you’re right, PP, I wouldn’t want my children to attend a Faith school regardless. However as the non-Faith schools happen to be better, there seems to be a remarkably large number of religious families choosing those over the Faith school, further restricting choice.

Having worked in a Catholic school... the main difference I observed was parental support. The parents supported the school, supported their child etc.

Obviously this happens in all schools... but it was all the parents.

The school had a higher proportion of children on FSM than other schools in the area, and more EAL. But results were better.

They mean voluntary aided schools: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voluntary_aided_school.
And they got it wrong. For VA schools 10% (not 90%) of the capital costs (not running costs) are funded by the church. They raise the money from parent donations (it works out at around £30 - £40 per child per year on average, so not much).

Of course it is not inclusive, it is intended to exclude

It's a step back and not at all desirable.

Secular and atheist are not the same thing, they are not either/or.

Faith schools achieve higher results because they are less inclusive, not because they teach better.

“Faith schools shouldn't exist in the state system at all. Anything funded by the state should be available for all. This is dreadful news.”

I used to think like that. Until Covid, when I realised how much control Government actually has. Now I think the opposite. The more independent players in the Education sector with differing views to stand up to the dogma of the day, the better, in my opinion. As long as they are following the law. I no longer trust the Executive with Education much. They use it as a pawn to their advantage and try to impose their current views of the day. All too fickle. I probably trust the independent sector and churches more these days than any political party. I think it is really important that there are new church schools as well. A one size fits all is very dangerous. Especially a Marxist one. If you start looking at what is happening in Slovakia right now and how over half the population there reveres the current Russian model, you will see what I mean. They are massively cracking down on media and freedom of speech. The general population is very easy to manipulate, especially with the internet. We need as many and as diverse forms of education as possible.
What I am saying may be counter intuitive to some as they will see Religion as dogma, but to me it is now just another way of viewing the world.